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Author Topic: An ancient race  (Read 11327 times)
Senza
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« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2013, 06:28:05 PM »

"...Cheyennes, Harmonicas and Franks would be a much better place than what is going on. Fuck so called civilised America."

If Harmonica did think this, then that would kind of mean he would hate Jill and what she represents. Unless you mean that the "civilised America" consisted of businessmen like Morton, then I agree.

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« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2013, 12:07:50 PM »

No! It's more than "important to the movie", this IS the movie. These two guys, they are "ancient race" and that's when they meet they talk about philosophy...

I was a bit slow on the uptake, what Harmonica means by "an ancient race", thanks for the clue. I agree that "MAN" is meant in the level of philosophy. However, in my view, it is not necessary that Harmonica includes Frank into this category; he just responds when hearing "MAN". Frank stylizes himself into the role of the "MAN" just in this moment.

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« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2013, 09:46:27 AM »

Interesting point, Well. The only clue Harmonica gives is that "Man" is a race that will be killed off by Mortons. Frank is, at lest literally, killed of by Harmonica (is Harmonica a man?).

But what I really want to know is, what is it about Morton that he is not a Man? Is it that he relies so heavily on money, paper, and machine to live? In that sense he is not fully a man, but don't all men have man-made crutches of some kind? Frank sets up the analogy nicely when he compares Morton's desk to his gun ("only much more powerful"). I think Frank realizes he a man of the gun, not of the desk, and if he was right that the desk is mightier than the gun, then perhaps it is right to say that he is killed off by the desk wielding Mortons. After all, Morton shot Cheyenne, right?

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« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2013, 02:11:08 PM »

Interesting point, Well. The only clue Harmonica gives is that "Man" is a race that will be killed off by Mortons. Frank is, at lest literally, killed of by Harmonica (is Harmonica a man?).

But what I really want to know is, what is it about Morton that he is not a Man? Is it that he relies so heavily on money, paper, and machine to live? In that sense he is not fully a man, but don't all men have man-made crutches of some kind? Frank sets up the analogy nicely when he compares Morton's desk to his gun ("only much more powerful"). I think Frank realizes he a man of the gun, not of the desk, and if he was right that the desk is mightier than the gun, then perhaps it is right to say that he is killed off by the desk wielding Mortons. After all, Morton shot Cheyenne, right?

The beauty of this discussion (not this film since this is a general phenomenon) is that each gesture and word can be interpreted in hundreds of ways; and it does not matter how Sergio L. meant this or that, how deep or extensive he was on this or that, there is still a space for anyone to make his/her own positive progress; I hope that a OUATITW message is a positive one.

Back to your "what I really want to know" (who does not want to know?); grand_chum and Beeps gave nice suggestions in previous posts. My wording is, that "MAN" stands for "FAIR" within this framework; and this would be the answer to your question "what is it about Morton that he is not a Man?" - because Morton does not play fair. Frank told us clearly that Morton in fact hired him to remove small obstacles from the track and there were a few. Morton cannot make excuses that he did not know what went on starting with Dave Jenkins; he bore all the responsibility for his desire to see the blue of the Pasific.  (and by the way to make money)

In this respect Harmonica is probably the "MAN", while Frank grasped this title only for this ultimate fatal moment to express to Harmonica that he will play fair with his gun regardless of the outcome.

(I will be happy if someone tells me Im wrong and gives me his tru story  Wink


« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 03:09:03 PM by cigar joe » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2013, 04:52:36 PM »

... Harmonica despises Frank more than anyone in the world, Frank traumatized him when he killed his brother, he is walking around for all those years with the trauma, symbolized by the harmonica that he wears like a cross around his neck, (trauma which isn't relieved until he kills Frank, at which point he can finally tear the harmonica off his neck)....

Yes, this is the best explanation to keep the source of Harmonica's motivation within the frame of this opera.

I do not want to spoil this drama, but it comes to me an alternative. Its not inevitable that he has been carrying his cros all the time; he might as well been waiting for the right time and place to deliver the justice. His hate towards Frank might have been transformed to a postponed impersonal decision to exercise the justice in a fair way based on law. He comes to act as a Court, if you wish as the Supreme Court.

Although the legal institutions in them days might not be perfect, still there were rules and law punishing a criminal act (It was all in order. Seals, signatures, everything). And Harmonica does not want to be a criminal. Officially he has no evidence against Frank since That was always one of Frank's tricks. Faking evidence.

In fact the duel is initiated explicitly by Frank, only implicitly by Harmonica. Thus killing him in the duel from the legal point is a selfdefence for him and the revenge on his brother.

I this respect, the impressive sound of harmonica would not represent the deep long lasting Harmonica's trauma, but a robust and unanmbiguous announcement that the Judgement Day has come.

What contradicts the above alternative is the long row of more dead men starting with Dave Jenkins, which had been growing probably continually through some time and Harmonica had been following it with a rising tension that reirritated his old aching wounds; another moment breaking my alternative is the "IF situation" if Frank had come to the Cattle Corner to make the appointment and Harmonica killed him - what the hell of legal thoughts came through Harmonica's mind to keep him clean!

Anayway, as I perceive it, Harmonica acts as a judge without emotions bringing the justice, while Frank acts as a villain wanting to kill Harmonica since he spoiled something that belongs to him and posing himself as a MAN is his decision to act as a MAN only in the decisive  moment of his existence.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 04:55:17 PM by The Well » Logged

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