Kitty scene dubbed

[sadhill]

And to think I know this movie! Dummy me! I forgot about and did not add the in the desert canteen shooting scene! Well yes the sound of only 4 then 1 shots is heard, but it looks maybe like the canteen was hit 5 times, making it "5 to 1" once again. The lower 4 holes when it was shot on the ground, the upper splintered shot from the other side out of Blondie's hand. ( I know they probably didn't shoot it out of Eastwood's hand, but maybe the actually shot it in reality if they were still using the "5 to 1" trait, (a close up on a canteen better have the 5 holes). Remember in gunfire the entrance wound is usually small and  circular, the exit is blown-out/cone shaped(like in glass) or splintered out as in wood.

This was maybe a orginal flaw written in for Tuco's character to empty his gun during a shootout. But if he does this, expecially in this scene, why didn't Blondie take a chance and just jump him if he did in fact fire off all six shots. Also as iceman pointed out, why get out of the tub and go the door with an unloaded gun.  Maybe these questions came up during post-production and  they just altered that  exacting character trait.  Great discussion, thanks for all your replies/opinions!

[Hanley]

There are quite a few examples of Tuco's firing pattern of 5:1 in the script:
1) Opening scene
2) Gunshop scene
3) Water canteen
4) Shelled town
I expored the script pretty quickly but there is in my mind no doubt about the 5:1 system, especially when the script states that Blondie thought about the pattern of the shots in the shelled town scene! The 5:1 theme may have been overlooked during shooting (pardon the pun) and/or during editing.

[cigar joe]

thanks for all the imput

[johnk]

Its sort of like Leone's rule of what is out of the frame the actors can't see, in this case the rule can be stated as what is not shown doesn't mean something didn't happen.

You have to assume that Tuco & Blondie were together enough for Blondie to get to know Tuco's habbits, his style of shooting, the sound and cadence of his shots, etc., etc.

During their con games those all had to take place over a period of weeks, later after the double cross when Tuco chases Blondie down he keeps checking the campfires to see how old the trail is each campfire is a night.

During the desert sequence for instance what I would think had to be a couple of days was condenced into what 10-15 minutes of screen time.

During the wagon ride after the mission, they are covering a lot of time and territory remember when Tuco pulls out the map they have a lot of ground to cover as he describes their treck, that might be a weeks worth of of travel.

Yes I think you are right.Doesnt the Al Mulloch character in the bath tub scene say hes been looking for Tuco for eight months ?

[cigar joe]

Yea, something like eight months or so.

[Hanley]

Good work Sadhill! I found another case (absent in the film) of Tuco's 5:1 shooting in the script. Once again, I have read it pretty quickly.
The shelled town scene: first, there was the 5:1 shooting in the bathtub scene. A bit later, Tuco goes to the room of the demolished housewhere Angel Eyes had been. The camera shows a man sleeping in the bed with his face to a door. The door suddenly flies open, followed by "6 shots, 5 +1". The script explicitly states that there were 5 shots then another. Back to the scene, Tuco tears the sheets back, but instead of finding Angel Eye's, there is the corpse of "Slim". There is a note on the bedside table . . . Tuco has trouble reading it . . . Blondie appears and takes the note from him . . . It states, "Bravo, until soon" etc

[Jordan Krug]

Hanley - where did you get your copy of the script? Also in the script and that scene you just mentioned- does it say "idiots, it's for us" (which is what he is saying if you watch Eastwood's mouth) or "idiots, it's for you" which is what they dubbed?

Thanks

[iceman]

Just to clarify one last thing Sad........Blondie probably didn't jump TUCO when he shot the canteen and emptied his gun because didn't TUCO have blondies gun on him as well...so he was still armed..and wasn't  there also a rifle knocking about somewhere.

ICE

[HEX]

ICEMAN is right the knife TUCO has can be seen in the deleted(and just put back in) of TUCO  taunting BLONDIE while eating.

[iceman]

ICEMAN is right the knife TUCO has can be seen in the deleted(and just put back in) of TUCO  taunting BLONDIE while eating.

Sorry HEX I was meaning Blondies gun and rifle

ICE

[sadhill]

Iceman, yes Tuco has Blondie's gun and his rifle. Tuco has Blondies silver snake gripped Colt pistol in his belt.  I just thought that since this was early in the walk, it might have been his best opportunity to jump Tuco, but rewatching it, he really is too far away from Tuco for an attack.


 About the rifle, well hmmm,...I'll let you guys re-watch it, He does take the rifle, but watch and see when it actually appears on the horse. I don't want to post another error nit-pick!

[The Man With A Hand Brace]

It makes more sense to ignore the "five-to-one" line.

As for recognising the sound of someone's gun, I'd say that would be very difficult, seeing as so many people could use the same make.

In this instance, I think it's a case of dramatic necessity over logic.

The audience just needs to know that Blondie has been alerted to Tuco's presence. Knowing the tune of his gun is just another one of Blondies near supernatural abilities (perfect shot, cat-like reflexes, etc.), and is the easiest way to have him leave the bombed-out building.

It's probably a device to get Blondie to team up with Tuco again, and not necessarily something that could happen in real life. Alittle bit of movie coincidence, that's all.

[emmo26]

Thanks for clearing that up.....


Out of interest did anyone count the number of "empty" shots tuco fired straight after the Mexican Standoff

[drinkanddestroy]

I don't know if this will shed any light on this issue, but I'll just point out,  (thanks to Frayling's blu ray commentary) that there are several moments in the film where the dubbing changes the words that are originally spoken. Two specific things I remember him saying:

A) During shooting, Angel Eyes's name was Sentenze; every time the name Angel Eyes is mentioned, you can see the actors actually saying "Sentenza." After filming, Eastwood came up with the idea to change the name to Angel Eyes.

B) The line "Idiots... it's for you," originally was "Idiots.. it's for us." And you can see this as well in Eastwood's lips. It wasn't till later that (someone?) realized it would be much better to have him say"it's for YOU."

Al this shows is that there is precedent for dialogue being changed between shooting and dubbing

As for the 5-1 shooting, (I didn't read every post here, so forgive me if I'm repeating something, but IF it's correct, it sort of makes sense there would be a hesitation: cuz you'd never want to shoot your final bullet unless you have to; you'd always wanna have a bullet remaining, in case someone sneaks up on you before you get a chance to reload. So after shooting 5 shots, before shooting the 6th you'd pause -- to make absolutely certain that there is nobody else around, that no one else is gonna sneak up on you, before emptying your gun. So if he does empty his revolver, it makes sense that he'd pause a moment -- to make sure there's no other threat -- before doing so.

[emmo26]

A) During shooting, Angel Eyes's name was Sentenze; every time the name Angel Eyes is mentioned, you can see the actors actually saying "Sentenza." After filming, Eastwood came up with the idea to change the name to Angel Eyes.

Didn´t Leone originally want Henry Fonda to play LVC´s part and the name was going to be Blue Eyes?