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Author Topic: Yankee or Confed  (Read 6533 times)
iceman
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« on: November 17, 2005, 02:02:57 PM »

So if they had to choose...which side would TUCO and Blondie have chosen.... Yankee or Confed and why... (remember Blondie comes from  illinos) Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh


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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2005, 03:07:01 PM »

So if they had to choose...which side would TUCO and Blondie have chosen.... Yankee or Confed and why... (remember Blondie comes from  illinos) Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh


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well for the ILLINOS remark i have always thought BLONDIE just said that to say something. i never really believed him. also neither of the two cared about the war at all. so why would they choose sides?

but if it is for the sake of argument...well...i am not quite sure on this one.

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Sackett
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« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2005, 03:41:44 PM »

Tuco claimed to want to enlist with the Yankees, but I think its clear that they would have been on the side  that could fill their pockets better.

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Juan Miranda
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2005, 06:43:42 PM »

With a duo so full of twists and turns, Blondie and Tuco end up in both armies. They are "in" the Rebel side, who's uniforms they are wearing when they are captured, and in the Union side, when they "enlist", though they never actually have time to wear the gear.

As Blondie is clearly an outsider to any society ("not a citizen" as Andrew Vachss would say) and Tuco isn't even from the US, neither guy would dream of being on either side.

On the restored version, however, it seems as though Angel Eyes really does belong with the Confederate's, and is activly fleeing a sense of responsibility. He is clearly utterly uncomfortable in the Confederate fort in a way he never is in the rest of the film, and seems to wince on being called "a drifter".



This makes his impersonation of a Union sargent all the more surprising later. Indeed it's in the Confederate fort that he first hears about Betterville camp, and is told "You better hope you don't end up there."

« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 07:16:28 PM by Juan Miranda » Logged

dave jenkins
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2005, 08:35:40 PM »

Juan, wow, some really good points. I had realized that Angel Eyes was impersonating a Union sergeant at Betterville (he must have murdered the guy en route to report and taken his place), but it never occurred to me that he might originally have been a Confederate deserter....or at least some one who did not answer his country's call when it came. Of course, if he really is Mortimer's evil twin (LOL) he would have come from Carolina....

As to Blondie's and Tuco's allegiances: those are two gentlemen who are going to end up on the winning side, no matter what.

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« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2005, 07:32:23 AM »

[quote author=dave jenkins link=topic=2620.msg24135#msg24135

As to Blondie's and Tuco's allegiances: those are two gentlemen who are going to end up on the winning side, no matter what.
Quote


i believe ANGEL EYES would not mind being on the winning side as well.

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Beebs
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2005, 04:03:46 PM »

Blondie seems like the Johnny Reb to me. Not for the side or politics but he seems to fight for the guys who need the help. Plus he's seen the cruelty of the Yanks

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Juan Miranda
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2005, 04:34:16 PM »

As a Scot who has no partisan interest in the American Civil War what so ever, can I just point out that li'll ol' slavery thang that was a major factor in that war? It wasn't the Union who were perpetuating this obscene cruelty (at that point in history).

As for the prison camp full of brutality and torture Blondie finds himself briefly trapped in, isn't it generally agreed that it's based on Andersonville, a Confederate run POW camp for Union troops?

Also, if my post above speculating about Angel Eyes being a Reb is right, wasn't he the cruellest man out of our titual trio?

Reading anything about the history of the US during this period, also covering the ethnic cleansing of native Americans previously by the Spanish, or subsiquently by American "manifest destiny", is hardly an uplifting experience for anyone.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 04:58:33 PM by Juan Miranda » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2005, 09:18:57 AM »

Hopefully this won't open up a can of worms.

The American Civil War is very warped in the textbooks. Writers like to base the key of the war on Slavery. This was merely a small part on the side. The real issue that turned a disagreement into a war was the North and Federal Govt pressing tariffs and the like on the southern states. Slavery merely enraged the dispute between the North and South causing it to become a regional battle.

About the slavery thing. I can hardly think of crueler methods other that Nero, Hitler and terrorism that is worse. I will not defend the South saying that slavery is right because it is not. Not then not now. But the issue is that the war was about too much federal control and little State controll. The war is often called in the South where I live, "The War of Norther Agression".

Therefore I sympathize with the South. A few farming states taking on the rest of the US which had better equipment, hygiene, and allies. The South was inches from beating the North with rampid dysintary, poor equipment but great leadership.

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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2005, 01:00:26 AM »

Is it really ever implied that Angel Eyes is impersonating an officer, and that he killed the real officer and stole his uniform?  I always loved the mystery that you have know idea how he got to the position he got to so fast.

The other thing is that I really believe all three characters were completely neutral in the war.  I think that's part of the point of the movie.  It seems like Leone was trying to show how utterly stupid war is through the eyes of three people.  All they cared about was getting the gold, and the side they had to take made absolutely no difference to them.  I loved the line that Tuco said about "letting these idiots fight some other place" or something like that.  I think that trying to decide which side Tuco, Blondie, and Angel Eyes would be on kind of ruins it.

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dave jenkins
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2005, 04:35:18 PM »

You'd better learn to distinguish rank, soldier. Angel Eyes is impersonating a sergeant, not an officer.

No, the film doesn't make explicit how Angel Eyes comes to be wearing a Union uniform at Betterville, or how he comes to be, in effect, running the place. We're free to come up with our own explanations, and the idea of killing a Union non-com for his identity is mine. I'd be happy to entertain other reasonable explanations. But SOME explanation is required, unless you think Angel Eyes was a reservist just in Betterville to do his two-week annual training.

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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2005, 05:15:07 PM »

Like Dave, I just figured he bumped off a Union sergeant, stole his duds, took his spot (there were no photo I.D.s in those days).  Just like I always figured no problem for Tuco to round up some slugs to ambush Blondie, didn't make much difference to the plot whether he knew those three.

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Juan Miranda
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2005, 05:31:06 PM »

It's true that Angel Eyes is running the camp, to all intents and purposes, but he does have a superior officer, the captain.



This guy is a very curious character, like the other Union captain we meet at the bridge. Both men are crippled by the war, physically and mentally. In the case of the captain at the bridge it's through alcohol, in the case of the captain at the camp because of gangerene in his leg.

In some ways the relationship between him and Angel Eyes reminds me of that between Morton and Frank in OUTIW. Again we have a crippled boss unable to control his subordonate, and is even mocked by him. Possibly this prototype stems from the John Wayne version of THE ALAMO, where Lawrence Harvey, with a badly wounded leg (and with gangerene? It's been years since I saw it...) can not control Richard Widmark.

Other interesting little touches - the only scenes in the film where Lee Van Cleef doesn't look like a tramp, unshaven and dusty like Blondie, are in Betterville. Indeed, they are the only bits in the film where he looks anything like the dapper Col. Douglas Mortimer from FAFDM, right down to his pipe smoking.

Also it's odd that Leone/Delli Colli frames the shot I've captured here similar to one in OUTIA, at a much later date, when Noodles discovers Mo beaten up near the start of that film.

So yeah, there is loads going on that we can only speculate on, and isn't that what makes each viewing of Leone's films so rewarding?

« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 06:24:16 PM by Juan Miranda » Logged

dave jenkins
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2005, 06:50:20 PM »

Juan, great observations. I'm really glad you post on this board. The Frank/Morton parallel is one I'd never thought of.

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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2005, 11:44:32 PM »

Quote Juan Miranda: Possibly this prototype stems from the John Wayne version of THE ALAMO, where Lawrence Harvey, with a badly wounded leg (and with gangerene? It's been years since I saw it...) can not control Richard Widmark.


  Juan, are you sure you mean JW's The Alamo?  Travis (Lawrence Harvey) does have command issues with Bowie (Richard Widmark), but Harvey has no problems with a badly wounded leg, or gangrene as best as I can remember it.

  I'm not trying to single you out, I just want to figure out what you're shooting for.

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