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: Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid (1973)  ( 74987 )
uncknown
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« #225 : July 28, 2019, 01:23:18 PM »

Easily a 10 in the 2006 cut. If not an 11 ...

It's different than the theatrical but not enough to " save" it.
I like the film alot.
But MGM didn't " ruin" it as far as I can tell. The prologue and wife encounter only make Garrett a more miserable and pathetic character.
My main problem has always been the ultra downbeat portrayal of.him . Coburn is 3xcellent but the script could have lightened things up a bit.
Also, the ' end of the West's theme is heavy handed. OITW did it better. Here it's a realistic variation on the theme; as opposed to Leones mythic take.
Fine as far as it goes. It's just a bit too nihilistic, cynical and dour for my taste.

But it's a film with many great moments and one I admire.

6.5/10


"Other Morton's will come along  and they'll kill it off"

My article on the restoration of the The Big Gundown
http://thekinskifiles.blogspot.com/2009/01/cinemaretro-13-big-gundown.html
uncknown
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« #226 : July 28, 2019, 01:39:28 PM »

I also don't feel that the movie devotes enough time to Billy and Pat's past friendship. As soon as we meet them, they are already antagonistic toward each other (even though Billy says, "he's my friend," they are in the beginning stages at least of the antagonism). If the movie had seriously dedicated a large portion to their friendship, then perhaps we'd feel the depths of Pat's betrayal more. But as it is, though we are told that they're friends from the past, we never really see and feel the friendship; hence Pat's betrayal is not nearly as devastating as it can be.

I don't know if perhaps this issue was explored more in scenes that were cut. (I've only seen the TCM version).

Great point.
They also seem too far apart in age.to have had that.meaningful friendship.


"Other Morton's will come along  and they'll kill it off"

My article on the restoration of the The Big Gundown
http://thekinskifiles.blogspot.com/2009/01/cinemaretro-13-big-gundown.html
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« #227 : July 28, 2019, 01:46:23 PM »

Yea, the lack of development of their friendship is a flaw. It's been a few years since I've seen the film don't even know which version I did watch.


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« #228 : July 29, 2019, 01:52:20 AM »

It's different than the theatrical but not enough to " save" it.
I like the film alot.
But MGM didn't " ruin" it as far as I can tell. The prologue and wife encounter only make Garrett a more miserable and pathetic character.
My main problem has always been the ultra downbeat portrayal of.him . Coburn is 3xcellent but the script could have lightened things up a bit.




Then you want a different film.

In this film there is a good reason why Coburn can smile in the early scenes, even when he arrests Billy (cause it's only a warning), and becomes more and more embittered the longer the film goes, the longer he betrays himself. He is long dead when he dies at the end, killed himself at the beginning of the film.

The downbeat portrayal of Garrett and the fatalistic disinterest of Billy, that's what the film is about. Or as a critic once wrote: "the double self portait of the filmmaker as loser".

A understanding and positive film review was once  titled "30 senseless deaths".

« : July 29, 2019, 10:08:13 AM stanton »

uncknown
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« #229 : July 29, 2019, 09:37:58 AM »

I get that.
I did give it a positive review.
But, it's very much a 70's take- like MCCABE- that occasionally goes too far into cynicism.
And, as we have discussed here. the supposed BOND of deep friendship doesn't register. So , the tragedy, is weakened.
Btw I saw it when it opened in theaters!

« : July 29, 2019, 09:40:18 AM uncknown »

"Other Morton's will come along  and they'll kill it off"

My article on the restoration of the The Big Gundown
http://thekinskifiles.blogspot.com/2009/01/cinemaretro-13-big-gundown.html
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« #230 : July 29, 2019, 10:12:23 AM »


But, it's very much a 70's take- like MCCABE- that occasionally goes too far into cynicism.
And, as we have discussed here. the supposed BOND of deep friendship doesn't register.

For me it does, it is always there, otherwise the film would really have a problem.

I saw it later, in the 80s, first from a fullscreen VHS, later luckily also a few times in the theatres. I loved it already in this theatrical version, and saw it in that version for about 13 years, before the work print showed up.


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« #231 : July 29, 2019, 02:31:30 PM »

Question:

When Baker tosses the gold coin back to Garrett was it to
A. Flip heads or tails for who goes first
B. Giving it back in anticipation he would be killed ( which doesn't make sense as he is married)
?


"Other Morton's will come along  and they'll kill it off"

My article on the restoration of the The Big Gundown
http://thekinskifiles.blogspot.com/2009/01/cinemaretro-13-big-gundown.html
uncknown
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« #232 : July 29, 2019, 10:32:54 PM »

I've been reading reviews by users on IMDB and almost everyone says something like " the Knockin on Heaven's Doir' scene is one of the most.moving I have ever seen".
So, who ' butchered' PGABTK?
NOT MGM, but whomever decided the song didn't belong.
That preview cut should be buried and forgotten! >:(


"Other Morton's will come along  and they'll kill it off"

My article on the restoration of the The Big Gundown
http://thekinskifiles.blogspot.com/2009/01/cinemaretro-13-big-gundown.html
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« #233 : July 30, 2019, 11:12:56 AM »

That preview cut should be buried and forgotten! >:(

 :o

But general consensus is the preview cut is the best version, although many people do favor including the lyrics for Knocking on Heaven's Door.


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« #234 : July 30, 2019, 12:20:23 PM »

Question:

When Baker tosses the gold coin back to Garrett was it to
A. Flip heads or tails for who goes first
B. Giving it back in anticipation he would be killed ( which doesn't make sense as he is married)
?

Neither.

It means something like "I still have my pride"


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« #235 : July 30, 2019, 12:30:11 PM »

I've been reading reviews by users on IMDB and almost everyone says something like " the Knockin on Heaven's Doir' scene is one of the most.moving I have ever seen".
So, who ' butchered' PGABTK?
NOT MGM, but whomever decided the song didn't belong.


That probably was at that point Peckinpah's idea under the influence of Jerry Fielding. But later thought probably different about that, according to a letter he wrote.


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« #236 : July 30, 2019, 09:34:08 PM »

Neither.

It means something like "I still have my pride"

But didn't Garrett make a gesture to Baker indicating he wanted the coin?8


"Other Morton's will come along  and they'll kill it off"

My article on the restoration of the The Big Gundown
http://thekinskifiles.blogspot.com/2009/01/cinemaretro-13-big-gundown.html
uncknown
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« #237 : July 30, 2019, 09:36:21 PM »

That probably was at that point Peckinpah's idea under the influence of Jerry Fielding. But later thought probably different about that, according to a letter he wrote.

Didn't Sam throw out Fieldings score for GETAWAY( replaced by Quincy Jones)?
So, he wasn't THAT loyal!


"Other Morton's will come along  and they'll kill it off"

My article on the restoration of the The Big Gundown
http://thekinskifiles.blogspot.com/2009/01/cinemaretro-13-big-gundown.html
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« #238 : July 30, 2019, 11:35:23 PM »

Didn't Sam throw out Fieldings score for GETAWAY( replaced by Quincy Jones)?


No, that was McQueen. He also cut out a few scenes, most likely to make his role bigger. Things stars do when they become too big ...

That Jones score from The Getaway does the film a bad  favor.

And the Knockin on Heaven's Door scene is with or without music or lyrics a very intensive scene, but it is the most intensive with the lyrics.



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« #239 : July 30, 2019, 11:35:53 PM »

But didn't Garrett make a gesture to Baker indicating he wanted the coin?8

 Nope


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