Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid (1973)

[stanton]

Not sure where I stand on the issue of the lyrics to Knocking on Heaven's Door.

Did Peckinpah originally want them in or out?

Nobody really knows. But for me it makes this intensive scene even more intensive. I can't watch it without the lyrics. (well I can, but it makes me a bit sad)

Don't how it would have been if I had seen the film at first in the turner cut, but I watched it in the 80sa dozen times in the theatrical version and I loved the film. The Turner cut was then a slight disappointment despite adding a lot of new stuff. The greatest thing was the new opening, a terrific scene, but some of the stuff of the theatrical version worked less good in the Turner cut.

[stanton]

I agree, perhaps even more so. I've explained before my indifference towards the film's big emotional set piece, Slim Pickens' demise. It's a nice little self-contained scene, but we've only met the character about three minutes ago. Why care if he bites it?

Here also, I can. Despite he's only there for a few minutes, this scene has a great feel about loss in it.

This is one of the qualities of the film. All these minor characters began to breathe in their short appearances.

But the film is anyway only about Pat and Bill, and everything else is build around them.

For me the construction of  the film is masterful. Very different from the other Peckinpah twilight westerns, which all have the same themes, but a different approach to develop them.

[mike siegel]

Right.
He cast those great well-known character actors because they had only short time to come alive! I mean if you don't care about Slim Pickens dying you don't care about much
The was supposed to be in as far as I know. But Jerry Fielding (who was against the soundtrack anyway, for obvious reasons) once commented on it, saying that the scene speaks for itself and is so strong it wouldn't need verbalizing on the soundtrack. In a different movie - he would be right. In Sam's hippie western the song fits in great.

[Novecento]

Nobody really knows. But for me it makes this intensive scene even more intensive. I can't watch it without the lyrics. (well I can, but it makes me a bit sad)

The was supposed to be in as far as I know. But Jerry Fielding (who was against the soundtrack anyway, for obvious reasons) once commented on it, saying that the scene speaks for itself and is so strong it wouldn't need verbalizing on the soundtrack. In a different movie - he would be right. In Sam's hippie western the song fits in great.

That's good to know. I've always like the lyrics in the scene too so I'm glad it was probably Peckinpah's intent. Right, my ideal cut is the the TCM version plus the scene with Garret's wife, plus the Knocking on Heaven's Door lyrics.

One of the most frustrating things about the SE DVD is the image quality of the 2005 cut is so much nicer than the TCM cut. I wish they'd showered the same love on the TCM one.

[stanton]

For me the other missing scene (the Ruthie Lee scene) of the TCM cut is more important than the one with Garrett's wife.

I think btw that many people have problems with this film because they don't understand it. For most films there is one way to understand that film, and only if one understands the film works. but understanding is not only a matter of intellect. I also don't understand many films, I don't find the necessary approach to it so that i can't enjoy it the way other people do. Reasons for that are very multifarious.

Who views PG&BtK mainly as a film about the legend has probably already lost. Of course it this also somehow about the BtK legend, but it is in fact mainly about Peckinpah himself.

Many describe the story as Garrett hunting down his former friend Billy, which is completely wrong, and viewed like this of course many scenes and the film's structure don't make that much sense. It is in fact about Garrett trying to avoid to kill (to hunt) Billy as long as possible, and what it all costs him.

[Groggy]

I think btw that many people have problems with this film because they don't understand it.

I wonder if you understand that it's possible to "understand" a movie and still dislike it.

[drinkanddestroy]

y'all ever hear of something called "fan edits"?   

[Groggy]

y'all ever hear of something called "fan edits"?

Yes, and they stink whether done by a film critic or a nerd who's seen Star Wars 5,000,000,000 times.

[stanton]

I wonder if you understand that it's possible to "understand" a movie and still dislike it.

Of course. It was a general statement anyway.

I haven't said that understanding a film means automatically liking it. But it's difficult to like a film one does not understand. But even that happens.

My impression is simply that for Pg&BtK this happens more than for other films. Which also shall not imply that my view of the film must necessarily be the correct one. Or the only one to enjoy it.

[stanton]

Yes, and they stink whether done by a film critic or a nerd who's seen Star Wars 5,000,000,000 times.

A beautiful idea for me. There are many films from which I would like to make my personal perfect version. Re-make, re- model ...

[Novecento]

The was supposed to be in as far as I know. But Jerry Fielding (who was against the soundtrack anyway, for obvious reasons) once commented on it, saying that the scene speaks for itself and is so strong it wouldn't need verbalizing on the soundtrack. In a different movie - he would be right. In Sam's hippie western the song fits in great.

Going by the mantra of dialogue basically being icing on the cake (i.e. a great film should still be pretty good even when watched in a language one doesn't understand), then Fielding makes a good point. However, the reference is more oblique with song lyrics than dialogue so perhaps it's easier to get away with it. Personally I found it obtrusive even when Leone included just the single word "Yesterday" in OUATIA, but I remember quite liking the inclusion of the lyrics to "Knockin' on Heaven's Door" here. I think I'll need to watch both versions back-to-back to compare. Either way, it's one helluva great scene and I'm glad no-one actually says anything!

[stanton]

Short deleted scene from this masterpiece:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hFv-4c12Ig

It was only part of early TV versions, which otherwise were heavily cut.

[dave jenkins]

Way cool, thanks!

[Groggy]

Awesome!

[drinkanddestroy]

Pat Garrett's oath and voucher located in Department of Justice archives http://blogs.archives.gov/TextMessage/2011/08/01/a-few-good-lawmen/