Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid (1973)

[noodles_leone]

No, that was McQueen. He also cut out a few scenes, most likely to make his role bigger. Things stars do when they become too big ...

That Jones score from The Getaway does the film a bad  favor.

And the Knockin on Heaven's Door scene is with or without music or lyrics a very intensive scene, but it is the most intensive with the lyrics.

So the relationship between McQueen and Sam was conflictive?

[mike siegel]

So the relationship between McQueen and Sam was conflictive?

These things happen all the time when working on pictures. McQueen's company produced the film,
and McQueen's ego is widely known. Sam had a full page ad in Variety & Hollywood reporter to
officially thank Jerry Fielding for his excellent GETAWAY score, out of loyalty and also to show
people, that it wasn't his choice.
Steve had presented Fielding's daughters two cats and when they all met at Fielding's
house for Sam's 50th birthday party in 1975, Steve & Ali MacGraw asked how they named the cats.
Jerry's daughter said: "Ali & Gringo". Steve returned "Why Ali & Gringo??". "Well, we couldn't name it STEEEVE..."

[uncknown]

So, is the 73 release- the ONLY definitive one for me - lost to ( rewritten) history?
 

[stanton]

So, is the 73 release- the ONLY definitive one for me

Why not the 2005 cut?

It is basically the 73 version (slightly repaired) with the then deleted scenes (bare one) added. Only the opening scene was newly edited.

[mike siegel]

And the discussion starts all over again... 

(no, there are more changes 1973/2005.)

[stanton]

Yes, some more, but not much, or am I wrong?

The dialogue in one scene was changed back to the original lines. What else of importance?

[mike siegel]

The main problems of the 2005 cut:
- wrong music transition after the first Jason Robards scene (terrible)
- wrong music used for the wonderful "raft" scene
- KNOCKIN' song
- Whitey Hughes death is shortened (?)
- Sam's scene is shortened (?)
- One of my favorite lines was deleted ("What you want and what you get are two different things!)  ?

[stanton]

The main problems of the 2005 cut:
- wrong music transition after the first Jason Robards scene (terrible)
- wrong music used for the wonderful "raft" scene
- KNOCKIN' song
- Whitey Hughes death is shortened (?)
- Sam's scene is shortened (?)
- One of my favorite lines was deleted ("What you want and what you get are two different things!)  ?

I don't remember at the moment who Whitey Hughes is, and I'm not sure about the 2 score things, but your points 3, 5 and 6 are all following the theatrical version,
and I assume your points 1, 2 and 4 are also taken from the theatrical cut, and that's what I said: The 2005 cut uses the theatrical cut as basis with most of the deleted scenes added.

For me the shortened parts are no problem, and the Knockin song should be the first thing added to the work print. It is difficult to watch these scene without the lyrics, I'm too much used to them, and they intensify the scene so much.

Hmm, the score for the raft scene is not the same in all versions? I never noticed that.

[mike siegel]

I don't remember at the moment who Whitey Hughes is, and I'm not sure about the 2 score things, but your points 3, 5 and 6 are all following the theatrical version,
and I assume your points 1, 2 and 4 are also taken from the theatrical cut, and that's what I said: The 2005 cut uses the theatrical cut as basis with most of the deleted scenes added.

For me the shortened parts are no problem, and the Knockin song should be the first thing added to the work print. It is difficult to watch these scene without the lyrics, I'm too much used to them, and they intensify the scene so much.

Hmm, the score for the raft scene is not the same in all versions? I never noticed that.

You see it differently because you think most of the 73 is right - I don't.

(1.) That cut (39:41) is soo bad, anybody equipped with hearing should notice. 73 theatrical:  the music faded in on John Beck's close-up, then it cuts to Billy riding. 2005: No fade-in, a straght cut into the song, an amateurish mistake. In the preview cut there's a different scene after Beck's silent face. They probably got mixed up or didn't check the theatrical cut for reference.
2.) raft-music: same tune, wrong version, not the one used in 73 preview cut (which was better, check the last third or so, also a fine transition from the now missing previous scene)
3.) Same. Slightly different version. But only very slightly, no harm done really.
4.) Whitey is in many Sam films, he's the last one Billy kills in Fernandez death scene. Him fallling down longer is better.
5.) Sam's scene is good and hardly works cut down too much. But the whore's are longer, not really needed THAT long.
6.) That line was important, Pat's final stroke against John Beck, very well delivered...

All a big mess.

[stanton]

I don't think that the theatrical version is right, but it worked very well on its own, despite several flaws. I only said that the 2005 cut uses that version for the scenes which are shared by the theatrical and by the preview version.

But none of your points has a bigger importance for me, especially not those I never really noticed, or maybe had already forgotten that I once noticed.

Is the small Peckinpah scene different to the 73 version? It is surely longer in the preview version, but like that last line from Garrett, I think I can live without them. But I have to admit that I'm not sure if the film is better with or without them. Same for the short card game amidst the shoot-out after the credits.

There are other small parts I would more prefer to have back in an ideal version.

Actually I also still think that several of the shoot-outs are not cut like Peckinpah usually did cut them. Just watch the shooting in the turkey chase scene.

Well, in the end, if there are several versions of a film (or a song), everybody finds other things to prefer. But it is still fun to discuss such matters.

[mike siegel]

Totally agree,
that Turkey sequence deserved better .

[moorman]

As I have stated earlier in this thread, Paulita and Pete Maxwell are distant relatives of my family.  This lead me to have high hopes for the movie.  My first gripe is Kristofferson as the lead.  His performance itself wasn't bad. The problem is his inclusion set the tone of the movie to more of a pretentious television affair.  His background being in music prevented me from taking this thing seriously. Bob Dylan's inclusion didn't help.  Next, the movie moved along at a long, slow pace with no plot development.  Yes, it was a simple story but it was predictable and boring. 

Peckinpah crammed a long list of western actors into this and it was a waste. The best scene was Katy Jurato and her scenes at the ambush.  James Coburn was well cast and did a fabulous job. The rest of it doesn't measure up in my opinion.  Peckinpah made two western masterpieces, Ride the High Country and The Wild Bunch.  This was nowhere near that level. 6 out of 10...

[stanton]

Next, the movie moved along at a long, slow pace with no plot development.  Yes, it was a simple story but it was predictable and boring. 

Funny question, what is the story or the plot of the film?

[noodles_leone]

Funny question, what is the story or the plot of the film?

You wicked german.

[Novecento]

As I have stated earlier in this thread, Paulita and Pete Maxwell are distant relatives of my family.  This lead me to have high hopes for the movie.  My first gripe is Kristofferson as the lead.  His performance itself wasn't bad. The problem is his inclusion set the tone of the movie to more of a pretentious television affair.  His background being in music prevented me from taking this thing seriously. Bob Dylan's inclusion didn't help.  Next, the movie moved along at a long, slow pace with no plot development.  Yes, it was a simple story but it was predictable and boring. 

Peckinpah crammed a long list of western actors into this and it was a waste. The best scene was Katy Jurato and her scenes at the ambush.  James Coburn was well cast and did a fabulous job. The rest of it doesn't measure up in my opinion.  Peckinpah made two western masterpieces, Ride the High Country and The Wild Bunch.  This was nowhere near that level. 6 out of 10...

You probably watched the wrong version. So many people are derailed by watching the 2005 cut and thinking it's original...