Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid (1973)

[dave jenkins]

Dylan's score was terrific, but its a shame he was in the movie. 

Truer words were never spoken. I finally got a chance to go through the new Peckinpah box set this weekend and all the way through both cuts of PG&BTK I kept asking myself, What the heck is Dylan doing in this movie, and why does he get so many reaction shots? KK wasn't the studio albatross in this picture, Dylan was (but yes, the score he wrote is good).

Can't say I liked PG&BTK much, and I watched both versions (I prefer not enjoying the 2005 cut to not enjoying the 1988 Turner). Had a lot of nice bits that didn't seem to add up to much. Kind of like watching a Jarmusch film (would make a good double-bill with Dead Man). None of the characters came alive for me, so I couldn't really care if they lived or died (we learn from the docs that most of the cast was sick during the shoot and that may explain, though not excuse, some of the performances), and the tendency to have cameos just so the famous guy could get blown away got a little old. And speaking of cameos, when Peckinpah suddenly shows up for his at the end I just burst out laughing. What was all that crap about putting everything he owned in a baby-sized coffin and burying it? And why is it that KK and Rita have to take so long to get undressed? So that Coburn has enough time to waltz in undetected? And are we really supposed to keep a straight face when Coburn shoots the mirror, and then looks at his distorted image in it? ("Oh Noooo, he's "shot" himself!") And are we really expected to keep from throwing things at the screen when the film ends with the little boy throwing things at the retreating Pat? (Get it? Just like the ending of Shane, except this time the boy hates the hero. Clever, eh?).

Sorry, this film is a mess. I know there are plenty who like it but I don't think I'm ever likely to come around to that way of thinking. And it isn't that I don't like Peckinpah. I love The Wild Bunch and Alfredo Garcia and (as stated above) Cross of Iron, and I've really gotten into Dundee since the new DVD, but some Peckinpah just doesn't work for me (Straw Dogs is another Peckinpah film I can't appreciate).

[titoli]

Uhmm, seems like I'd better live with memories.

[dave jenkins]

DVD Beaver do an interesting comparison of the 2005 and 1988 cuts: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews20/pat_garrett_and_billy_the_kid.htm

[Tim]

  So Dave what is your honest opinion of the movie?  Just kidding, buddy.

  I understand what you're saying, but there is something about this movie that I can't explain.  As they say on some of the extras, there is something very lyrical about PGABTK.  There is virtually no plot other than the rather slow-moving chase of the Kid, but for whatever reason it all holds together for me.  I might be biased because I've yet to see a Peckinpah movie I haven't enjoyed.

  And as for the casting, I think Kris Kristofferson works in the role although he was too old for the part of Billy.  His performance has grown on me each time I see the movie.  I've always been a fan of Bo Hopkins, but I don't know if he could play such a big role as Billy the Kid.  He's excellent as a supporting character in other Peckinpah movies, but what about such a big role as Billy?  One for the ages I guess.

[dave jenkins]

I thought KK was fine, I just thought his character wasn't given enough to do. So he starts to take off and runs into Paco being tortured to death by Chisum's men. He takes out the bad guys but it's too late to do anything for Paco. The Kid decides he can't run away and goes back. Okay, so far so good. But then what does he do? He just hangs around with Rita waiting for Pat to come by and blow him away. Excuse me? What about taking the fight to Chisum? What about taking the fight to anybody? What was it he went back for?

Give me Benny from Alfredo Garcia, who, although he knows he's going down, is determined to take everyone with him.

[titoli]

I might be biased because I've yet to see a Peckinpah movie I haven't enjoyed.

Have you seen The Killer Elite?

[cigar joe]

I think 40 year old KK was clean shaven in PG&BTK to try & make him look younger. I still maintain that Michaell J. Pollard in "Dirty Little Billy" fits the actual images of BTK that do exist, and he would have made a more menorable punk Kid, lol.

Check out that film here if you are interested:
http://www.bpm123.net/

I got a DVDr of it but it plays only on the computer, so you may be safer with a VHS


 

But then what does he do? He just hangs around with Rita waiting for Pat to come by and blow him away. Excuse me? What about taking the fight to Chisum? What about taking the fight to anybody? What was it he went back for?

I know its too disjointed he also dawdels in Linclon after he shoots down Ollinger and the other deputy, wierd film, you suspect that somebody connected with Chisum whould have shoot him in the back givin all the opportunities. KK just doesn't have enough charisma to make that scene believable.

[Tim]

titoli, I haven't yet seen The Killer Elite although I'd like to.  I know there is an old dvd of it, but I plan to see it at some point.  I take it that you're not a fan?

  And for the scene in Lincoln where Billy takes his time getting out of town, I've read that that's how it actually happened.  After killing Bell and Ollinger, Billy took his sweet time riding out of Lincoln.  Now, as for the singing I'm not sure about that.  The scene of Billy slowly moving out of Lincoln is one of the few scenes that I think just doesn't work.

[grandpa_chum]

after reading that dvd beaver comparison I think I'll stick to my 88 turner cut(i have a widescreen dvd of it)... It's just not the same movie without the garrett death sequence... and call me crazy but I prefer the lyric-less knockin on heavens door sequence too.

[titoli]

titoli, I haven't yet seen The Killer Elite although I'd like to.  I know there is an old dvd of it, but I plan to see it at some point.  I take it that you're not a fan?

Surely not a KE fan, which I find to be the lamest (pardon the pun: you will get it when you watch the movie) Peckinpah. 

[dave jenkins]

after reading that dvd beaver comparison I think I'll stick to my 88 turner cut(i have a widescreen dvd of it)... It's just not the same movie without the garrett death sequence... and call me crazy but I prefer the lyric-less knockin on heavens door sequence too.

You get the Garrett death sequence in the 2005 cut, you just don't get it twice. Both versions open with Garrett's death, but only the Turner goes back to it at the end. I think the audience can remember it fine without having to see it a second time.

I think I prefer the lyric-less Knockin On Heaven's Door too, but realistically, that was never the way the studio was going to release it. Even if Peckinpah was given years to edit the picture, and even if every one of his other choices was going to be respected, the one thing the studio was going to make sure of was that they had that song tie-in. So, the idea of the 2005 cut is that it is a compromise between the theatrical release and the preview version, and since I guess we're never gonna get another chance to see the theatrical cut, I'm glad the 2005 exists.

[grandpa_chum]

Luckily for me I'm not too concerned with the way people intended things or realistic depictions of what might have happened to a cut... I want to see the best movie possible... personally that is the death scene twice and no knockin lyrics... although I am interested to see the garrett's wife stuff... just not enough to buy the dvd.

[KERMIT]

i don't have the exact story but sam wanted roger miller, that " king of the road " guy to do the music for PG&BTK.
colburn & kristofferson :
we begged sam to bring bobby down to durango. sam says we'll see. during supper after a shoot and much
tequila, sam truns to bobby and says you're the guy the kids USED to listen to. well,  let's see what you've got. bring your guitar ?  bob lead sam &  his favorite rocking chair into an alcove and pulled a curtian. a few munites later sam emerges from his rocker w/ hanky blowing his nose, obviously moved. sam : " WHO IS THE HELL IS THIS GUY ?  SIGN HIM ON !"
it's little stories you pick up you wern't looking for that wash off the dust of everyday life from your boots.
please ! let's don't bring dylan's acting into this, lol

[Leone Admirer]

I'm actually going to watch PG&BTK tonight after an aborted attempt on Friday, I am looking forward to it and the accompanying featurettes whet my appetite.

[grandpa_chum]

speaking of the garrett death scene... besides being a great note to end the movie on... I also always thought part of the point of having it at the end was the fact that the kid throwing stones was also the kid shooting garrett from behind the bushes... sort of a full-circle thing. garrett killed the kid and then a kid killed garrett.