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Author Topic: Hombre (1966)  (Read 19022 times)
titoli
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« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2006, 02:09:54 AM »

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Actually I look at it as a struggle between his Native American stoicism and his Caucasian reality.

He's ideologically totally on Indians side. He accepts what there is of white civilization (dresses, talk) only for opportunistical reasons. To let emerge a chivalric, "white" attitude is nonsense.

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His Native American side couldn't care less of the whites, however there is possibly that overwhleming intrinsic human need to protect the female of the species that does foolishly win out when goaded on by Cilento.

They are not the last humans on earth. No, if he does it it is because he is attracted by Cilento. Still the repentine decision he takes when she goads him into action doesn't rhyme with his critical attitude: he hasn't developed such a intimate relationship with Cilento which assures him he can be the man of her life or the opposite. He knows his going against great odds and can't do that so lightheartedly as he does.

Still you're right, I'd like to have time to read some of the Leonard's western tales, expecially those transposed into movies.

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Tim
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« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2006, 08:57:48 AM »

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But are you personally satisfied with the finale? I think it crashes with Hombre's personality as we have seen it develop from the start. To behave foolishly just for a nice pair of eyes doesn't go down with me.

  I don't think Russell does what he does just because he's attracted to a "nice pair of eyes."  Jessie proves to him that she's willing to die to go save the woman tied up at the bottom of the staircase. Unlike all the others, she is willing to sacrifice herself.

  IMO, Russell sees this and decides to do it himself.  Of course, I love the irony of the woman he's trying to save ending up killing him by blocking the shot.

  And that's a really good take on if it was a spaghetti western.  Let the woman kill herself. Shocked

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titoli
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« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2006, 10:13:11 AM »

So he does it for a point of pride? Maybe, but what had it been March or Balsam to propose himself for the mission?

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Tim
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« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2006, 12:41:55 PM »

  Well, titoli, I think you hit the nail on the head. March or Balsam would have never volunteered to go down and save March's wife.  Instead, a lone woman volunteers to do it.

  I've looked at it as Russell showing respect for the one person in the group that is a genuinely good person.  If he hadn't gone down in her place, Jessie would have gone down, she wasn't trying to call his bluff.  It's almost as if Russell would possibly rather sacrifice himself than let Jessie die.

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cigar joe
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« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2006, 03:33:17 PM »

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I've looked at it as Russell showing respect for the one person in the group that is a genuinely good person.  If he hadn't gone down in her place, Jessie would have gone down, she wasn't trying to call his bluff.  It's almost as if Russell would possibly rather sacrifice himself than let Jessie die.


That makes sense too.

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titoli
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« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2006, 04:55:11 PM »

I have the marked impression that Cilento f...s Hombre, folks.

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« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2006, 05:38:54 PM »

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I have the marked impression that Cilento f...s Hombre, folks.

   Shocked

  I never thought of that.  I don't know if I agree, but I'd never contemplated it.  It seems to take away from Newman's Russell character, like it removes his "cool" feeling.  Just like the Socorro scene in GBU or the scene with the innkeeper's wife in FAFDM would have taken away from Blondie's supreme coolness.

  Stuff like that makes him seem human, like they're down on our level, lowly humans.  Grin 

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cigar joe
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« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2006, 07:42:21 PM »

I think we need to get a hold of Leonards book,  Wink


Done..... Amazon.com has used copies ahhh the wonders of the internet, they also have "Valdez is Comming, and another Western by Leonade I never heard of:

http://www.amazon.com/Hombre-Elmore-Leonard/dp/0380822245/sr=1-1/qid=1162866759/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5044587-6626428?ie=UTF8&s=books

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CISCO
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« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2006, 12:23:58 AM »

thanks !  Grin

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titoli
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« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2006, 12:39:28 PM »

the review of the book by suetonius at amazon.com lets one presume the flaw was there (in an aggravated form) from the start.

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cigar joe
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« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2006, 05:03:18 PM »

Well the book arrived the other day and I have been reading it. So far its not quite the same as the film. The story is told sort of in flash back style by Menedez's helper the blonde kid Peter Lee Blake, who is the newly wed in the film but in the book he's not married to the blonde girl who in the book is an indian captive that's just been released. He meets her just before the stage takes off

Russel inherits a ranch not a boarding house in the book, so there is no Jesse (Diane Cilantro) boarding house manager part nor is there a Cameron Mitchell sherrif backstory though his character name Frank Braden is used in the book instead of Cicero Grimes.

The incident at Delgado's is the first time the narrator sees Hombre, its also explained that Newman's character has three names John Russel, Ish-kay-nay, and Tres Hombre, he got the name in a fight with renegades and the muleskinners he was with said he fought like Tres Hombres.

Cicero Grimes (Richard Boone) is called Frank Braden in the book (the name of Cameron Mitchell's lawman gone bad character in the film) and his dialogue in the film is right out of the book. So with the coach are Menedez, Blake, McLaren, Dr. & Audra Favor, Russel and Braden. I've gotten as far as the groups flight from the stagecoach into the desert.

Will report back as I get further.  Cool

« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 03:46:48 PM by cigar joe » Logged

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CISCO
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« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2006, 06:52:00 PM »

the best is yet to come,
and, away we go joe...
new s**t has come to light  Grin

possibly, if a prequel script, using the book it seams possible "hombre 2" taking newman's character further by exploring hombre's past.
and, re-igniting new intrest in the original folks may have missed. boone extrudes evil. like frank, a menace extradinaire. boone, also the master of the "slow burn ".... " this is the part i hate the most "

John Russell: Hit something, Mendez, first the men, then the horses.
Henry Mendez: I don't know. Just to sit here and wait to kill them?
John Russell: If there was some other way, we'd do it.
Henry Mendez: Maybe we can keep going and try to outrun them.
John Russell: If you run, they're gonna catch you, they're gonna kill you. You believe that more than you believe anything.
Henry Mendez: All right.
John Russell: And try not to puke. You may have to lie in it for a long time.

hombre has 100 one liners.

[Grimes/ boone has just delivered an ultimatum to Mendez and the others]
John Russell: Hey. I got a question. How are you planning to get back down that hill?
Grimes: Now you wait a minute! I'm getting back down the same way I came up! (Begins running back down the hill. Russell shoots him as he is running)
Jessie: [as Grimes crawls away after being shot] Cicero Grimes, meet John Russell.


« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 08:16:30 PM by cisco » Logged
cigar joe
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« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2006, 03:49:21 AM »

Its my favorite AW, lol, now if it just had a Morricone score...... you can almost just hear the jew's harp twangs after Hombre's one liners, lol.

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« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2006, 06:16:02 AM »

Its my favorite AW, lol, now if it just had a Morricone score...... you can almost just hear the jew's harp twangs after Hombre's one liners, lol.
when i mentioned a prequel i was thinking the exact thing. wasn't hombre and indian policeman hired to
protect the coach ? heard that somewhere.  like TMWNN
i wonder how newman's character became that savvy
in dealing w/ the situation the're all in. hombre has to wet nurse and explain options at every turn.  Grin

« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 06:26:13 AM by cisco » Logged
cigar joe
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« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2006, 09:11:52 AM »

Ok just finished the 184 page novel. Like I stated before in the story there is no Jesse, Kathleen McLaren the girl (17 yrs old) who was taken captive ( by Apaches for about a month) and is being returned to her parents was split into two people in the screenplay.

In the story she is an attraction to Carl Allen, Menendez's helper who becomes Peter Lee Blake in the screenplay and McLaren character splits into both his young unsatified wife Doris Blake, and tough as nails Jesse.

In the novel its Kathleen who eventually becomes the outspoken one, speaking for the "human" race rather than taking sides, always goading Russel to do whats right she says "people help other people."

In the novel its Kathleen who yells out to Dr. Favor at the San Pedro Mine and gives them away.

Russell "I want to know why you helped."

Kathleen "Because he needed help! I didn't ask if he deserved it.....Like that woman (Audra Favor) needs to live, its not up to us to decide if she deserves it."

Russell "We only help her, huh?"

Kathleen "Do we have another choice?"

Russell "Not Help her."

Kathleen "Just let her die."

Russell "Thats up to Braden (Grimes). We have another thing to look at, if we don't give him the money he has to come get it."

Kathleen "You'd sacrifice a human life for that money, that's what you're saying."

Russell "Go ask that woman what she thinks of human life.  Ask her what human life is worth at San Carlos when they run out of meat."

Kathleen "That isn't any fault of hers."

Russell "She said those dirty Indians eat dogs. You remember that? She couldn't eat a dog no matter how hungry she was..... Go ask her if she'd eat a dog now."

Kathleen "That's why she insulted the poor hungry miserable Indians and you'd let her die for that!"

Russell  "We were talking about human life."

Kathleen "Even if there was no money, nothing to be gained, you'd let her die! ....Because she thinks Indians are dirty and no better than animals."

Russell "It makes you angry why talk about it."

Kathleen "I want to talk about it, .... I would like you to ask me what I think a human life is worth... a dirty human Apache life. Go on ask me. Ask me about the ones who took me from my home and keep me past a month. Ask me about the dirty things they did, what the women did when the men weren'y around and what the men did when we weren't running but were hiding somewhere and there was time to waste. I dare you to ask me!" ..... "I haven't seen my folks in two months....or my little brother. Just he and I were home and he ran and I don't know what happend to him, whether they caught him or what." .... "What do they think of an eight year old human life?... Do they just kill little boys who can't defend themselves?"

Russell "If they don't want them."

Kathleen silently dared Russell to say something else.

A few pages later as Audra is screaming for help and Russell asks each of those in the cabin if they want to go and help Mrs. Favor, they all decline even Kathleen. Russell then takes off his Apache moccasins and throws them at Kathleen, "Wear those, You run faster when the shooting starts " He then takes out his boots and puts them on."

At end of book.

John Russell was buried in Sweetmary. It was strange the neither the McLaren girl nor Henry Mendez nor I said much about him until after the funeral, and when we did talk found there wasn't much to be said.

You can look at something for a long time and not see it until it runs off. That was how we had looked at John Russell. Now, nobody questioned why he walked down that slope. What we ask ourselves was why we ever thought he wouldn't.

Maybe he was showing off a little bit when he asked each of us if we wanted to walk down to the Favor woman, nowing nobody would but himself.

Maybe he let us think a lot of things about him that weren't true. But as Russell would say that was up to us...... Russell never changed the whole time, though I think everyone else did in some way. He did what he felt had to be done. Even if it meant dying. So maybe you don't have to understand him. You just know him.

"Take a good look at John Russell. You will never see another one like him as long as you live" That first day, at Delgado's, Henry Mendez said it all.

end

 

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"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
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