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Author Topic: Tom Horn (1980)  (Read 16076 times)
dave jenkins
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2009, 07:13:03 AM »

Not at all. When we consider SL's presentation of the American Civil War in GBU, we notice the attention to detail lavished on costuming and set design. Still, for the sake of his own unique vision, we also note that the film frequently departs from the historical record. Thus, SL's portrayal of the New Mexico Campaign is "authentic," but not "accurate."

But go on and continue trying to teach me my native language, titoli. I always enjoy a good laugh.

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« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2009, 10:33:58 AM »

Getting nervous, Jenkins?  You're as inconsistent in your discussions as you are in your evaluations of movies. You just wrote things that do not stand to reason and fact. You sure know English better than me, but that doesn't mean that, in the case in question, your choice of words is fallacious and your defense of it ridiculous. If you had just admitted that you have picked up a wrong term to define the movie, that would have stopped all discussion. But that you want to persuade me that I can't tell the meaning of a word (whose etymology derives from ancient greek and is common in all latin languages: actually it arrives to English directly from Latin) and whose meaning is spelled in clear letters in the most authoritative american english dictionary, means only that you believe you can make a fool of me (or whoever) or that you're a fool yourself. The semantic range of "authenticity" includes "bias"? That is equal to say that  the semantic range of "good" includes "bad". And I am curious to know what authoritative source can confirm that.

Now, if you only meant by dubbing it as "authentic" that the movie follows cloosely its literary source, you could be right (I can't tell for certain: I haven't read the book. Did you?). But that's just as far as you could go. Because as the source is biased the movie becomes biased itself. Is there any source more "biased" than a autobiography? So where the authenticity of the movie lies? In the sets? In the costumes? In the name of the characters? Probably. But as the movie is based on the depiction of a character and of certain events as seen through the pen of a man waiting to be hung because of his part in those events, the "authenticity" (WEBSTER 1. entitled to acceptance or belief because of agreement with known facts or experience; reliable; trustworthy. you quote the other definitions, if you want)  it reduces itself next to nothing. Which doesn't mean necessarily that I can't appreciate the movie, up to a point. As I have told I liked it better the first time I saw it almost 30 years ago because I had no clue about who TH was.

The Leone example is not well-chosen because L's movie is a work of fantasy, where the Civil War is the background, not the main theme of the plot. 

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dave jenkins
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« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2009, 12:59:11 PM »


Now, if you only meant by dubbing it as "authentic" that the movie follows cloosely its literary source, you could be right (I can't tell for certain: I haven't read the book. Did you?). But that's just as far as you could go. Because as the source is biased the movie becomes biased itself. Is there any source more "biased" than a autobiography?
No, but there may not be a source that is any less biased. Who the hell is Dorthy Johnson? How do we know she hasn't an ax or two to grind of her own?

But this is beside the point. I already conceded that the film's agenda was to portray TH as a victim; and the one thing we know about victims is that they only ever give you their half of the story. So the characterization of Horn is likely false, but the settings, the clothes, the pace, the details of quotidian life, etc. strike me as being true. Many of the images from the film remind me of the paintings of Frederick Remington, who, at least, took his models from life. This is enough for me.

Perhaps "semantic range" was ill-chosen, but "authentic" was exactly the term I wanted to use, and I stand by it. Words are more than their etymologies, my friend, they take their meanings from the contexts in which they occur. It's interesting that you bring up "good" and "bad": I've never seen an example of good meaning bad (unless used ironically), but for many years now bad has been available in some contexts as a synonym for good (maybe you missed the Michael Jackson album?). Nothing in the etymology of bad would ever allow you to get to that meaning; you can only discover such a reading contextually. That is, that's the way people actually use it. Rest assured, however, when I use "authentic" I do not intend for it to mean its opposite, but I do intend for it to stand in contradistinction to "accurate."

I suppose you will remain unpersuaded (you always are), but I am not only writing for the benefit of the rudest poster on the board. Perhaps others will get what I'm driving at and appreciate the distinction I'm trying to make.

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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2009, 12:16:37 AM »

No, but there may not be a source that is any less biased. Who the hell is Dorthy Johnson? How do we know she hasn't an ax or two to grind of her own?

But this is beside the point. I already conceded that the film's agenda was to portray TH as a victim; and the one thing we know about victims is that they only ever give you their half of the story. So the characterization of Horn is likely false, but the settings, the clothes, the pace, the details of quotidian life, etc. strike me as being true. Many of the images from the film remind me of the paintings of Frederick Remington, who, at least, took his models from life. This is enough for me.

Perhaps "semantic range" was ill-chosen, but "authentic" was exactly the term I wanted to use, and I stand by it. Words are more than their etymologies, my friend, they take their meanings from the contexts in which they occur. It's interesting that you bring up "good" and "bad": I've never seen an example of good meaning bad (unless used ironically), but for many years now bad has been available in some contexts as a synonym for good (maybe you missed the Michael Jackson album?). Nothing in the etymology of bad would ever allow you to get to that meaning; you can only discover such a reading contextually. That is, that's the way people actually use it. Rest assured, however, when I use "authentic" I do not intend for it to mean its opposite, but I do intend for it to stand in contradistinction to "accurate."

I suppose you will remain unpersuaded (you always are), but I am not only writing for the benefit of the rudest poster on the board. Perhaps others will get what I'm driving at and appreciate the distinction I'm trying to make.

If you don't know who Dorothy Johnson is and don't even bother to make a search by google, I wonder how you can deem it "beside the point".  Anyway, coming from you, I find this ignorance amazing.

Now I understand what you mean by "authentic". You're not referring to the story itself. I agree: to a point. Because we're talking about a movie called TH, not one called John Doe. If you make a movie on Jesse James and show him killed in a duel by Robert Ford, can the whole movie be called, whatever its merits, "authentic"?

About me being the rudest poster here, that may be. But I'm sure I never told anybody posting here to go back to primary school.

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« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2009, 01:08:12 AM »

Greatest thread in SLWB history. Cheesy

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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2010, 08:52:32 PM »

Just watched a used DVD of this that fit the below $10 price mark I set for my self way back when... probably McQueen's best Western followed by Nevada Smith and Mag 7 with Linda Evans,   Richard Farnsworth, Slim Pickens, Elisha Cook Jr., and Geofrey Lewis. Saw this in the theater when it first came out.

One of the last remnants of the Western as we knew it, nice mix of veteran Golden Age Western actors and some newer Western character actors (i.e. Farnsworth-Lewis). But again it fits in that trend towards "realism" that I guess you could say basically destroyed the Legendary/Mythic Western.  Its a good film but, No style, no colorful character's, no cliche's, no tinkling piano music coming out of the saloon WTF, there was no music in the REAL west???, but Big ASS hats courtesy of product placement by Resistol and Stetson no doubt, the REAL West was BORING, we are living with the results today. lol

« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 04:27:59 AM by cigar joe » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2010, 05:48:45 AM »

I had the DVD in my hands a couple of months ago; I didn't have much time so I was able to watch only like 20 or 30 minutes before I gave it back. It was okay. I'll have to find it and watch it again sometimes.

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« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2010, 05:56:32 AM »

But Joe, the pictures! Every frame is a painting. Beauty is never boring.

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« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2010, 06:06:32 AM »

But Joe, the pictures! Every frame is a painting. Beauty is never boring.

No Beauty isn't boring, I didn't mean that, I'm talking about this realism trend in Westerns that is boring. The visuals are stunning  Afro Afro Afro

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« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2010, 04:16:45 AM »

This movie is like a great pity, I don't know how else to call it. Everything (and I mean everything) besides: 1) the characters, 2) the plot and 3) the direction, is top-notch, and I mean top-fucking-notch, I've had the feeling it just doesn't get any better than that, you name the segment. The plot and the characters are -unfortunately- a joke, while the direction is basically good; no style, simple and not special but correct. On the top of that it features one of SM's best performances ever, and a great accompanying set of familiar (W) faces... This is a movie that is easy to watch and enjoy, but a 7/10 is all I can give it: (if you watch W's regularly) it feels like eating the spiced potatoes for Thanksgiving, but without the turkey.

Strangely, I've never seen this on television, ever. It was probably filmed somewhere in 1979, so technically The Hunter would be SM's last movie, but despite all here and above said, not to show it as the final piece in those ''remember the actor'' movie circuits seems like a crime.



7/10

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« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2010, 10:23:32 AM »

I say, bring on the Blu-ray!

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« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2010, 04:14:53 AM »

For a second there, I thought you were actually gonna comment it and rate it.

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« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2010, 08:48:56 AM »

"Bring on the Blu-ray" is my comment. How is that not a comment?

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« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2010, 02:28:32 PM »

It would be much better if you'd just put that in your signature.

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« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2010, 03:46:43 PM »

It would be much better if you'd just put that in your signature.
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