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Author Topic: GIVE ME WESTERNS THAT LEONE COULD HAVE DONE A BETTER JOB WITH  (Read 19401 times)
The Firecracker
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« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2006, 07:31:43 PM »

maximun realism,




I wouldnt say Leone was concerned with realism at all, nor was he concerned with historical accuracy.

either way I always thought ALL of Eastwood's westerns (those he directed and/or starred in) could have been much better with Leone at the helm.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2006, 07:34:31 PM by The Firecracker » Logged



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« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2006, 08:47:06 PM »

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I wouldnt say Leone was concerned with realism at all, nor was he concerned with historical accuracy.


Oh really,

So the studies he made of Matthew Brady's Civil War photos were nothing, the accurate depiction and emphasis of period firearms showed no concern.

Compare him to his contemporaries.

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« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2006, 11:30:04 PM »



Oh really,

So the studies he made of Matthew Brady's Civil War photos were nothing, the accurate depiction and emphasis of period firearms showed no concern.




That was only GBU Joe. What about in "Fistful of dollars" when Ramon guns down all those soldiers with that Gatling gun that never existed? What about in FAFDM when Manco and Mortimer shoot it out on the streets of El paso at night? That whole affair seemed rather cartoonish and unrealistic. I wont even get into the "looney toon" gags later in Agua Caliente. The whole Sibley campaign in GBU did happen but it wasnt as large as Sergio made it to be. Yes he found a small "insignificant" battle that did happen in texas but it wasnt to the epic scale which Leone put it in. And what of Tuco's gun gag? You CANNOT take parts from other guns and attach them together to make some kind of "super gun". And what of the Trio showdown at the end? There would be no way the bullets from the revolvers would reach either charcater. The range is far to long. Face it, Leone's movies(especially the Dollars trilogy) are not about realism. And Leone is not concerned with it either. Yes he duplicated a few cannons and what not for GBU(only Gbu), so what? What about the rest of the film that has all kinds of firearm inaccuracies and improbable situations like a bomb landing a foot away from a character and yet there is not a scratch on him nor does he feel any effect what so ever.

Once you put something in front of a camera it seizes to be real. Reality is manipulated when making a movie. There is no "realistic" film no matter what the subject matter.

If I really must compare him to others(which I really should not because I think I proved my point above), how about comparing him too Corbucci. I will only mention the "Great Silence" though...the Mauser pistol was indeed made the same year the film takes place. Apparently somebody did his homework unlike Leone who usually got his "gun years" all wrong.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2006, 11:39:51 PM by The Firecracker » Logged



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« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2006, 10:40:43 PM »

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What about in "Fistful of dollars" when Ramon guns down all those soldiers with that Gatling gun that never existed?

It wasn't a Gattling gun it wasn't cranked. But machine guns did exist that worked by the explosive gas from the cartridges. It was a prop that was used in a low budget flick that was never meant to be analized by stop motion VHS or DVD.

Quote
What about in FAFDM when Manco and Mortimer shoot it out on the streets of El paso at night?
   It worked for me, it was supposed to be funny and it reprised Mortimers killing of Guy Calloway, and it was based on an actual shoot out that took place in Arizona, or New Mexico, a sheriff out gunned an outlaw using range of the guns the same way the outlaw's dying words to the sheriff were "you out generaled me".

Quote
I wont even get into the "looney toon" gags later in Agua Caliente.

Entertainmennt, pure and simple.

Quote
The whole Sibley campaign in GBU did happen but it wasnt as large as Sergio made it to be. Yes he found a small "insignificant" battle that did happen in texas but it wasnt to the epic scale which Leone put it in.

Its an epic story that has a historically accurate use of props, its not history. The battle of the bridge was supposed to be further East and not in the New Mexico campain also. Batterville wasn't real but Andersonville was. Compare the lacadaisical use of Colt Peacemakers at the beginning of Red River.

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And what of Tuco's gun gag? You CANNOT take parts from other guns and attach them together to make some kind of "super gun".

That is a misconception, there is no SUPERGUN, I don't believe he does put together different guns. Even though the gunsmith places a Smith & Wesson and some other makes upon the glass countertop he also places a few Colts and some counterfit Colts made by the South during the Civil War. YOU CAN PUT DIFFERENT COLT PARTS TOGETHER. Tuco simply puts together the best parts from the various Colts and Colt knock offs .

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And what of the Trio showdown at the end? There would be no way the bullets from the revolvers would reach either charcater. The range is far to long.

That's BS, they are about 80 feet apart. "In 1924, in an effort to see just how accurate the old cap & ball revolvers were, two experts selected a ,36 Colt Navy & ana a .44 Remington, both in almost new condition, and put them to a test. Using round balls from molds supplied with the revolvers, they had no difficulty putting them inside circles five inches in diameter at 50 yards, when using conical bullets, the circles had to be seven inches in diameter....." (Roy C. McHenry "in Re: Wild Bill Hickok" The American Rifleman, Vol LXIII, No. 25 (June 1, 1926), 865.


Quote
Apparently somebody did his homework unlike Leone who usually got his "gun years" all wrong.
Again I say BS.

Leone gave a real feel to Westerns, dirt, dust, flies, bad teeth, filthy torn clothing, and ambiguous characters. He did pretty good with what he had to work with.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2006, 10:55:23 PM by cigar joe » Logged

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« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2006, 11:06:51 PM »



Leone gave a real feel to Westerns, dirt, dust, flies, bad teeth, filthy torn clothing, and ambiguous characters. He did pretty good with what he had to work with.


so did Corbucci.




You claim the "Agua Caliente" shoot out to be "pure entertainment"...and your correct. But it is entertainment that comes off as "unrealistic" which is something  you deny Leone's films to be.


Again the Gatling gun Ramon uses is a fake. Check Shobary's site on the "Guns" section.



and did this Sheriff shoot a hat in mid-air several times without missing?

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« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2006, 11:18:59 PM »

Take a look...

http://spaghettiwesterns.1g.fi/guns2.htm

Notice most guns featured in Leone's films have some sort of historical inaccuracy or is a fantasy entirley.
Also notice Corbucci is usually never at fault with his guns with the exception of Django's gatling gun which is a fake.

http://spaghettiwesterns.1g.fi/guns.htm

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« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2006, 11:20:11 PM »

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so did Corbucci.

I never said he didn't, he was just a bit sloppier.


Quote
You claim the "Agua Caliente" shoot out to be "pure entertainment"...and your correct. But it is entertainment that comes off as "unrealistic" which is something  you deny Leone's films to be.

Not blatantly unrealistic. There are no acrobatics, no chain mail vests, no hippies.

Quote
Again the Gatling gun Ramon uses is a fake. Check Shobary's site on the "Guns" section.


I said it was a prop but fully automatic machine guns did exist we were never meant to stop the film and detect this. Leone was working with his budget, cut a bit of slack.


Quote
and did this Sheriff shoot a hat in mid-air several times without missing?
 

No but he did the former Mortimer fight with Calloway almost the same way.

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« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2006, 11:24:18 PM »

Shobary is wrong on the pistols, (illegal conversions were widely available) right on the "prop" machine gun, which I acknowledge was a prop in my post.

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« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2006, 11:24:56 PM »

I never said he didn't, he was just a bit sloppier.


Not blatantly unrealistic. There are no acrobatics, no chain mail vests, no hippies.
 



I agree. But the original arguement was "Does Leone make realistic films?" not whether Corbucci was more realistic or not.(that was thrown in by you at the last minute, I made the mistake in acknowledging it).

I say "No" Leone does not make relaistic films. The dollars trilogy is a perfect example of exagerration for reasons that are obvious and for examples I have stated above.


AGAIN... No film, no matter what the subject matter is NOT realistic.

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« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2006, 11:27:13 PM »

Ok films are not real, I agree.

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« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2006, 11:28:42 PM »

Shobary is wrong on the pistols


I am not questioning your gun knowledge Joe, but can you prove it? shobary got that info from another gun expert. Either one of you might have made a mistake and could be wrong. It could go both ways, but until I see proof I am sticking to shobary's site which houses alot more info on Leone's imperfections besides a "fake gatling gun".

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« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2006, 11:30:11 PM »

Ok films are not real, I agree.
then you would also agree that Leone makes exaggerated westerns(which is an understatment) correct?

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« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2006, 11:32:25 PM »

Leon amplified reality in my opinion.

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« Reply #88 on: May 10, 2006, 11:34:10 PM »

Leon amplified reality in my opinion.

Leone amplified it to the max.


(check your pm Joe)

« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 01:38:39 PM by The Firecracker » Logged



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« Reply #89 on: February 25, 2013, 12:09:19 AM »

I think High Noon and Rio Bravo could've benefited from it.

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