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cigar joe
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« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2006, 06:20:27 PM »

Thanks guys, here is the next section north.

When Sibley arrived in the vicinity of Fort Craig, Canby with a force of 4,000 made up of regular Federal Troops, New Mexico Volunteers (including a regiment commaded by Christofer "Kit" Carson), and militia refused to be drawn into battle. Sibley decided to by pass the fort by crossing the Rio Grande downstream of the fort and fording the river again 6 miles north at Valverde.    Canby sent troops north to stop the Confederates at Valverde Ford.

The Confederates charge early in the battle nearly succeded, but it was repulsed by Colorado infantry. Several Union attacks were beaten off by the Confederates. Sibley attacked again and captured a Union artillery battery.  Canby withdrew back to the fort.

Union losses 68 killed, 160 wounded. 25 taken prisoner, Confederates losses, 36 dead, 150 wounded, the Confederates also lost half of their cavalry mounts and had to convert one of their regiments to infantry.

Valverde Ford saw the only documented use of lancers in the Civil War.


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« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2006, 08:41:59 PM »

Thanks guys, here is the next section north.



Thanks, CJ.

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« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2006, 09:35:37 PM »

North section of New Mexico Map.

This shows Sibley's advance to Santa Fe which he reached on March 7th, 1862.

The Brigade was critically short of supplies and the Union forces had removed the remaining military supplies from Santa Fe with a 120 wagon army train to Ft. Union.

Sibley prepared to march on Ft. Union which had 800 defenders (he had been the forts commander the year before) and he was familiar with the forts defenses. But he did not know that a stronger earthwork fortification had been constructed or that troops from Colorado and California had been heading to New Mexico to counter him.

A 1,300-man force from Colorado commanded by Colonel John Slough, had marched 172 miles through deep snow and over Raton Pass and arrived at Ft. Union in only 5 days. Slough, ignored Canby's order to remain at Ft. Union and made immediate plans to march against the Confederates.

On March 22, 1,348 men, the Ft. Union troops,  the Colorado Volunteers, and a company of the 4th Regiment New Mexico Volunteers marched South on the Santa Fe Trail, Meanwhile Sibley and his troops were moving up the trail to Ft. Union. On March 26 at the mouth of Apache Canyon about 15 miles from Santa Fe the two armies met. The Colorado Volunteers charged the Confederates and forced a retreat 32 CS troops killed, 43 wounded, and 70 taken prisoner.

to be continued....



« Last Edit: October 01, 2006, 09:44:43 PM by cigar joe » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2006, 09:42:07 PM »

 Continued....


Two days later at Pidgeon's Ranch a hostelry on the Santa Fe Trail at the east end of Glorieta Pass the two armys fought again in a 6 hour battle that included 850 US troops and 1,200 CS troops, with a series of artillery strikes, cavalry and infantry charges, sharpshooters, bayonet assalts, and hand to hand combat with pistols  & kinves. US lost 38 killed, 64 wounded, and 20 captured. CS lost 36 killed and 60 wounded, and 25 captured. The Confederated held the field at the end of the battle.

However, during the battle a 450 man US contingent led by Col. John Chivington and guided by Lieutenant Colonel Manuel Chaves, circled through the mountians around Glorieta and destroyed the Confederate supply train. The CS forces were forced to withdraw back to Santa Fe.

Meanwhile Canby had left Ft. Craig with 1,200 US troops and was headed North at Scorro when he learned of Glorieta. He continued to march to Albuquerque where the remaining CS supplies were stored. This pincer movement forced Sibley to abandon the campaign and retreat from New Mexico. Sibley evacuated Albuquerque on April 12. Canby did not want to force a battle where he would capture and incur responsibility for a large number of prisoners.

US & CS troops did fight a skirmish at Peralta a few miles south of Albuquerque, and this was view as further encouragement for the Confederates to depart New Mexico.

Sibley and the CS army continued the retreat making a brutal 100 mile detour around Ft. Craig through deserts and mountains. By the second week of July all CS troops had left New Mexico. Sibley's initial force of 3,700 had been reduced through death, wounds, illness, capture, and desertion to a bit more than 1,500 during the six month campaign.

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« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2006, 09:51:03 PM »

Northern New Mexico Territory


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« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2006, 02:47:54 AM »

Northern New Mexico Territory



You have done a great job at illustrating the historical context of the GBU.  It's been a while since I looked at the Sibley campaign - previously, I couldn't find the dates when Sibley retreated from Sante Fe. I would appreciate a reference to these dates.
At a glance, it looks like you placed Tuco's hanging scenes in Mexico (correct me if I'm mistaken), but there are direct clues to the whereabouts in the film. The first hanging is at "Mesilla" - you can just about read "Bank of Mesilla" from one of the DVD frames. The second hanging is at the town of Valverde - you can see "Bank of Valverde" and "Post Office of Valverde" on the DVD frame.
According to the original script, the opening scene was Paso Negro (perhaps a play on El Paso) and Engel Eyes visits Kozlowski's Ranch (still exists today) on the Sante Fe Trail (where you correctly placed it).
My book project is virtually rounded off but unfortunately I have very little time at present (2 small kids!). I will try to get the layout done in Adobe In-Design asap.

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« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2006, 05:20:10 AM »

Quote
At a glance, it looks like you placed Tuco's hanging scenes in Mexico (correct me if I'm mistaken), but there are direct clues to the whereabouts in the film. The first hanging is at "Mesilla" - you can just about read "Bank of Mesilla" from one of the DVD frames. The second hanging is at the town of Valverde - you can see "Bank of Valverde" and "Post Office of Valverde" on the DVD frame.
According to the original script, the opening scene was Paso Negro (perhaps a play on El Paso) and Engel Eyes visits Kozlowski's Ranch (still exists today) on the Sante Fe Trail (where you correctly placed it).


actually I place them all ( the hangings) in Texas

Well the main reasons I placed all the hangings in Texas was that all the sentences read aloud by the various hanging parties all say something to the effect of ''Contrary to the laws of this State", New Mexico was not a state at that time period but a territory, (the same statement is said during Shorty's hanging) and also if you watch the scene where Blondie first splits the folding money with Tuco they are Confederate States of America bills which he is splitting which would also point to Texas. New Mexico remained in the Union with US money.

As far as the sets I was looking for clues and you may be right,  but a lot of the sets doubled as different towns so it could be easy to make a flub during the filming.  

So maybe during the filming it was decided to make the hangings all in Texas by the readings of the sentences, or maybe it was a oversite with the sets, and a mistake with the script or a direction change during the filming. But either by coincidence or design the film meshes pretty well with the events of the time.   Cool

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« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2006, 09:19:06 AM »



actually I place them all ( the hangings) in Texas

Well the main reasons I placed all the hangings in Texas was that all the sentences read allowed by the various hanging parties all say something to the effect of ''Contrary to the laws of this State", New Mexico was not a state at that time period but a territory, (the same statement is said during Shorty's hanging) and also if you watch the scene where Blondie first sptits the folding money with Tuco they are Confederate States of America bills which he is splitting which would also point to Texas. New Mexico remained in the Union with US money.

As far as the sets I was looking for clues and you may be right,  but a lot of the sets doubled as different towns so it could be easy to make a flub during the filming.  

So maybe during the filming it was decided to make the hangings all in Texas by the readings of the sentences, or maybe it was a oversite with the sets, and a mistake with the script or a direction change during the filming. But either by coincidence or design the film meshes pretty well with the events of the time.   Cool

Good point about the Territory of NM using US money! - I will check this out and I will edit my book accordingly, and give you the credit. I noted, though, that the $100 Confederate notes Blondie got as reward were issued in 1862 (fitting with the 1862 setting throughout the film), although post-Sibley.

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« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2006, 10:26:14 AM »

I'm not trying to be presumptious, but I thought I'd take CJ's excellent timeline and make it strictly chronological. In the process I made a few changes, which everyone can ignore. However, as far as I'm concerned, the chronology of the film cannot be violated. Unlike other SL films, GBU proceeds sequentially; there are no time displacements. Others may disagree, but that is a principle I feel I have to abide by.

So, for example, I see a time jump between the opening of the film and Tuco's first meeting with Blondie. The massacre at the Steven's farm and Baker's murder have to occur between those two events. Also, the Confederate fort scene has to come after the events in Santa Fe. Undoubtedly, this reordering probably plays havoc with CJ's painstaking efforts, but there it is.

I've also regularized some punctuation and spelling. Again, forgive my seeming presumption. The most significant change here is "Betterville" for "Batterville." I've listened to both the English and Italian dubs carefully, and both seem to say "Betterville" to my ear. That is also the spelling Frayling uses.

So here is CJ's great timeline once again, but made strictly chronological.

1861
late April or early May
Soon after the start of the War Between The States a group of Southern patriots that include men with the names of Baker, Stevens, and  Jackson leave their West Texas homes and ride to Dallas where the Texas 3rd Cavalry is organizing.

Early July to December
The regiment leaves Dallas and heads for Missouri on the "Texas Road" through the Indian Territory to Ft. Smith, Arkansas. They participate in the battle of Wilson’s Creek on August 10, 1861, CS casualties 1,095, US casualties 1,235 . The Regiment remains stationed in the border area of Missouri-Arkansas-Indian Territory. The 3rd Cavalry fights in the Battles of Chustenahlah on December 26, 1861.

Meanwhile, Tuco, in a ghost town hideout, is attacked by three bounty hunters. He kills two and wounds one.

1862
End of January to February
Jackson, Baker, and Stevens are detailed as a part of a 25 man Paymasters detachment for I Corp of the Trans-Mississippi District. Around the first of February, near Ft. Smith, they blunder into a Union Cavalry recognizance party. In the heat of battle the Paymaster’s wagon and $200,000 in gold coins disappears.  The sole separated survivors, all wounded, are Corporal Jackson, Stevens, and Baker.  At the beginning of the second week of February back in Dallas a military tribunal conducts an inquiry and acquits Corporal Jackson and Stevens.

Jackson either changes his name to Bill Carson and telegraphs ahead to re-enlist in Sibley’s Brigade, then hops a stage to El Paso, or Jackson, kills the real Bill Carson who is already on his way to join Sibley and assumes his identity. Baker belatedly arrives back in Dallas and finds out that Jackson has vanished.

Jackson heads north from El Paso and he visits Maria his "soiled dove" paramour in the New Mexico Territorial town of Dona Ana.  He reaches Sibley’s Brigade joining the 7th Texas Cavalry (7th Mounted Volunteers) 3rd Regiment on or about February 25th, near Scorro, New Mexico, Territory.

Early March 
Baker, back in El Paso, hires Angel Eyes to find Jackson and kill Stevens.

Mid March
Angel Eyes (AE) rides out to the Stevens’s hacienda, questions Stevens and learns Jackson changed his name to Bill Carson and joined Sibley’s Brigade. Stevens also inadvertently spills the beans about the missing cash box. Stevens gives AE $1000 dollars to try and buy his life, and for AE to kill Baker to boot, but AE kills Stevens and one of his sons.  AE goes back to Baker and collects his money and kills him. AE is now on a personal hunt for Carson.

Three more bounty hunters shoot Tuco off his horse. Tuco is "saved" by Blondie.

Blondie’s con game begins. Blondie takes Tuco into Scorro, Texas, and collects the bounty. Before Tuco is hung Blondie shoots the rope and they escape north out of town and into New Mexico Territory to lay low until things cool off for a while.

In El Paso as AE watches the second hanging of Tuco "The Rat" Ramierez, he questions "Half Soldier" (who was in the 3rd Texas Cavalry and lost both legs at the Battle of Wilsons Creek ) about the  whereabouts of Bill Carson.  Half Soldier also tells AE that Carson re-enlisted, and that he lost an eye, and that AE can find out more information from the whore Maria in the town of Santa Ana ( perhaps actually Dona Ana).

Blondie and Tuco (B&T) escape again north into New Mexico Territory. Blondie severs relationship, takes Tuco’s half of the reward and leaves him 70 miles out in the middle of nowhere.

AE interviews Maria in Santa Ana (Dona Ana). Learns Carson has left with the 3rd.

Tuco heads to Dona Ana, arriving in the early evening terribly dehydrated. He rearms at the gunsmith’s.

Tuco recovered, recruits some of his old henchmen to track down Blondie (the Grotto scene).

April 7th           
Santa Fe, New Mexico Territory, Sibley’s Brigade is retreating through town. Tuco spies Blondie’s saddle rig & horse. Blondie kills the three men that Tuco has recruited, but is caught by Tuco.

Blondie, about to be hung in his hotel room by Tuco, is saved by a cannon shot from an artillery barrage that blows out the floor under Tuco. Blondie escapes back to Texas (250 miles + or -) about 6 days travel.

AE is at Ft. Marcy outside of Santa Fe, New Mexico Territory. He finds out that Canby and the Union Forces have cut the Confederates to pieces at the Battles of Apache Canyon & Glorietta. If Carson is taken alive as a prisoner he will be sent to Betterville Camp (900 miles East).
                                     
AE leaves for Betterville along the Santa Fe Trail, traveling at an average of 30 miles a day he will reach the vicinity of Betterville in a month. (what makes the most sense is for Betterville to be near Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas & St. Joseph, Missouri).

Second week of April
The Socorro, New Mexico Territory sequence (fits in here).

Tuco tracks Blondie South back down to Texas by following his campfires. Three campfires (50 miles a day more or less).

April 15th  
Blondie & Shorty are running the con game again in San Elizario, Texas. Tuco captures Blondie and Shorty hangs. Tuco marches Blondie north back into New Mexico, planning a special surprise for his friend.         

April 17th              
Tuco gets supplies (food, water, water basin, parasol) in Dona Ana and marches Blondie into the "Journada del Muerta" (March of Death) desert, 100 miles, stretching north to south, with no water.

B&T meet "The Carriage of the Spirits" (an ambushed Confederate 3rd regiment Headquarters wagon full of bodies). Tuco begins to rob the dead but discovers Bill Carson/Jackson barely alive.

A delirious Bill Carson/Jackson tells Tuco about the buried gold in the Sad Hill Cemetery, Tuco asks about the name on the grave, but Bill Carson/Jackson begins to go into convulsions and demands water.  Bill Carson/Jackson dies but tells Blondie the name on the grave.

Tuco now must save Blondie, so he loads him in the carriage and heads for help.

April 18th             
B&T arrive at night at Confederate picket post find out they are at a place called Apache Canyon. Tuco asks for the closest infirmary and finds out that he is near his brother’s San Antonio Mission hospital.

April 19th              
B&T arrive at San Antonio Mission.

May                       
B&T leave San Antonio Mission cross the Rio Grande and head north into the dry Plains of San Augustine passing around the Union stronghold of Ft. Craig. Tuco has a map and talks about heading northwest and the Sierra Magdalena on their left and about crossing back across the Rio Grande and then going all the way across Texas (to the east).

B&T are captured by a Union cavalry patrol north and west of Ft. Craig.

Mid May         
AE waylays a Union sergeant newly assigned to Betterville, assumes his identity, and awaits the possible arrival of Bill Carson while running a black market ring at the camp.
July
B&T marched into Betterville Camp, from Ft. Craig, 1,020 miles (at a pace of about 20 + or - miles a day, over the Santa Fe trail. It would have taken them about 50 days) to this fictitious camp (closest real Union POW camp was in Illinois). This site also is located near the longest railroad existing at the time (St. Joseph & Hanibal RR) west of the Mississippi.

Tuco tortured and tells AE that Sad Hill near Ft. Smith, Arkansas is the name of the cemetery. Tuco & Wallace to St. Joseph & Hanibal RR. After ten hours on the train Tuco escapes and catches the next train back. Tuco tracks AE & Blondie South towards Ft. Smith and Sad Hill.

AE & Blondie & AE’s gang traveling about 30 miles per day and Tuco traveling about 40 miles per day both reach Ft. Smith at the same time.  (Ft. Smith, Arkansas changed hands several times during the Civil War and makes a good candidate for the battered town and it’s on a major river, the Arkansas.)

Ft. Smith. Tuco kills one-armed bounty hunter who has been on the lookout for him for eight months.

B&T kill AE’s gang and head for Sad Hill.

2nd week of July
B&T blunder upon a battle for Langston or Langstone bridge over the Arkansas River. The small cemetery nearby at Sad Hill has swollen with the dead from the various skirmishes & battles in the border area of Northwest Arkansas ( Pea Ridge (Elkhorn Tavern) was on March 6-8th  1862, US Casualties 1, 349, CS Casualties 4,600).

B&T&AE shoot out at Sad Hill.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 08:58:31 AM by dave jenkins » Logged


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« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2006, 05:00:16 PM »

Quote
So, for example, I see a time jump between the opening of the film and Tuco's first meeting with Blondie. The massacre at the Steven's farm and Baker's murder have to occur between those two events. Also, the Confederate fort scene has to come after the events in Santa Fe. Undoubtedly, this reordering probably plays havoc with CJ's painstaking efforts, but there it is.


DJ, I don't see exactly where it changed so point it out seems like we are on the same page. I thought I had The fort scene with LVC after the retreat from Santa Fe. I'll go back & look. I looked, I put it after the battle of Apache Canyon and Glorieta but I don't think it matters that much since either way the wounded are left behind.

I did it the way I did so that I could figure it out. I did Carson/Jackson so that I could get the events down from the burial of the gold next to Arch Stanton and the date on his grave.

Tuco I backtracked from his meeting with Al Mulock in the bath, eight months  Grin.

I'll go along with the flow on the Batterville Betterville change too.  Cool

« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 05:51:41 PM by cigar joe » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2006, 05:56:13 PM »

here are sketch Maps of Sibley's Brigade from

The Civil War in New Mexico
by Charles Bennett  :




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« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2006, 08:51:18 AM »

CJ, you are on a roll!

Got a couple of questions. First, in the Grotto scene, one of the banditos tells Tuco that they'd heard he'd been killed in Albuquerque. Could this refer to one of the hangings, perhaps one we don't see? Of course, it could refer to something outside the film entirely.

At Apache Canyon, the Confederate non-com checks Tuco's orders, which, we assume, are the legitimate orders someone in the Carriage of the Spirits was carrying at the time of his death. According to what is said, the carriage is coming from "San Rafael." Any idea what that may be about?

Regarding AE knocking off some hapless sergeant on his was to Betterville: what about Corporal Wallace? Could it be that AE and Mario Brega both assumed false identities at the same time? And where did "Wallace" and the rest of the gang come from? Did AE recruit these guys along the Santa Fe trail en route to Betterville?

Finally, when do you reckon AE and Tuco and Blondie first met? Pre 1861?

Hey, inquiring minds want to know.

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« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2006, 11:10:16 AM »

This is really impressive. Smiley

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« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2006, 09:30:47 PM »

Quote
Got a couple of questions. First, in the Grotto scene, one of the banditos tells Tuco that they'd heard he'd been killed in Albuquerque. Could this refer to one of the hangings, perhaps one we don't see? Of course, it could refer to something outside the film entirely.

I don't think so, outside the film as you say, prehaps it was another ambush with bounty hunters, and lets say the quarry got shot in the face, which could mistakely be identified as Tuco, could be any one of a number of scenarios similar, think one up  Cool

Quote
At Apache Canyon, the Confederate non-com checks Tuco's orders, which, we assume, are the legitimate orders someone in the Carriage of the Spirits was carrying at the time of his death. According to what is said, the carriage is coming from "San Rafael." Any idea what that may be about?

Thats another mystery, it could be someplace as simple as stage way-station, a roadside shrine, a ranch, someplace that was important in the campaign at that time, so it may have been the site of an encampment used by Sibley's Brigade that was known by that name, who knows.

Quote
Regarding AE knocking off some hapless sergeant on his was to Betterville: what about Corporal Wallace? Could it be that AE and Mario Brega both assumed false identities at the same time? And where did "Wallace" and the rest of the gang come from? Did AE recruit these guys along the Santa Fe trail en route to Betterville?

As for Wallace, yea that's a possibility, AE could have gathered these guys on his way to Betterville easily I would think. Or he just may have found Wallace already at the camp and made use of him. Any likely scenario that fits would work, I would think.

Quote
Finally, when do you reckon AE and Tuco and Blondie first met? Pre 1861?

Well judging from Tuco's various crimes, he's been in business at least 10 years, lol. AE would have come across him or at least heard of some of his nefarious exploits, no?,  Wink.

As for Blondie he seems to be a schemer, con-artist, who would have to keep on the move throughout the Southwest just to keep up a supply of fresh pidgeons ready to pluck, so he would also probably know who AE is by his reputation and vice versa.

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« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2006, 09:40:38 AM »

Blondie could be a relative newcomer to the region, though. News of the hanging con would have gotten around. He would have to stage the hangings rapidly, then get out of the game before HE began showing up on wanted posters.

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