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Author Topic: Have a Good Funeral, My Friend, Sartana Will Pay (Buon funerale, amigos!...paga  (Read 20112 times)
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« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2006, 07:47:04 PM »

You're watching the tree but missing the forest.
Of course the Leone's movies wouldn't be what they are without Morricone's music, but who chose Morricone in the first place? And who gave Morricone directions about what kind of music to compose? And who picked the single tunes among  those Morricone offered to Leone? And who was the director with whom Morricone gave his best? And why so?
About the non creativity of some of Leone's scenes I can agree (the final duel in Agua CAliente is duplicated in GBU and OUTW). Still I dare you to find in  all the SW (and also American Western) a scene that can be compared  to the final duel in FOD: I have known that scene for more than 40 years and I'm still thrilled each time I see it. Sure, most of te effect is because of Morricone's score: but how come the other directors who worked with him couldn't emulate it? Only Leone was able to emulate himself with the successive 3 duels. Not a mean feat, I'd say. The Specialist I have seen a pair of weeks ago and can't remember distinctly the scene you're referring to. That could mean I don't have good memory, But could also mean it is not particularly significant (actually I remember better the final duel Adorf Hallyday). Is it better than many Leone scenes? Maybe, or even probably.  But we see repeatedly Leone's movies for his best moments, not for the bad ones. And that somebody may have been able to do better than him in his worst moments it is not as significant as the fact that nobody could emulate his best: here lies the difference between your approach and mine.   
About Van Cleef vs. Kinsky, what do I care  about the way they shoot at each other when they have that great dialogue before? Do you find many dialogues like that in other SW? I can't remember none.
Sure, the Colonel and Eastwood get rid awkwardly of the gang. But the final duel? I mean, I wouldn't trade it for all of John Ford and Howard Hawks filmography, not to mention Corbucci's. This is not only a question of music. Corbucci worked with Morricone and had that wonderful music for the Mercenary: still I can't find a single scene in Corbucci's movie that even remotely approaches one of Leone's as to rhythm or intensity. Not everything in Leone is first class, but when he is good he's not even remotely approached by honest artisans like Corbucci or Sollima or Petroni. They don't have his sense of composition, his sense of rhythm, the ear for dialogues. To find Leone's betters you need to turn to the great ones of cinema like Fellini or Welles.

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« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2006, 08:10:50 PM »

You're watching the tree but missing the forest.
Of course the Leone's movies wouldn't be what they are without Morricone's music, but who chose Morricone in the first place? And who gave Morricone directions about what kind of music to compose? And who picked the single tunes among  those Morricone offered to Leone? And who was the director with whom Morricone gave his best? And why so?
About the non creativity of some of Leone's scenes I can agree (the final duel in Agua CAliente is duplicated in GBU and OUTW). Still I dare you to find in  all the SW (and also American Western) a scene that can be compared  to the final duel in FOD: I have known that scene for more than 40 years and I'm still thrilled each time I see it. Sure, most of te effect is because of Morricone's score: but how come the other directors who worked with him couldn't emulate it? Only Leone was able to emulate himself with the successive 3 duels. Not a mean feat, I'd say. The Specialist I have seen a pair of weeks ago and can't remember distinctly the scene you're referring to. That could mean I don't have good memory, But could also mean it is not particularly significant (actually I remember better the final duel Adorf Hallyday). Is it better than many Leone scenes? Maybe, or even probably.  But we see repeatedly Leone's movies for his best moments, not for the bad ones. And that somebody may have been able to do better than him in his worst moments it is not as significant as the fact that nobody could emulate his best: here lies the difference between your approach and mine.   
About Van Cleef vs. Kinsky, what do I care  about the way they shoot at each other when they have that great dialogue before? Do you find many dialogues like that in other SW? I can't remember none.
Sure, the Colonel and Eastwood get rid awkwardly of the gang. But the final duel? I mean, I wouldn't trade it for all of John Ford and Howard Hawks filmography, not to mention Corbucci's. This is not only a question of music. Corbucci worked with Morricone and had that wonderful music for the Mercenary: still I can't find a single scene in Corbucci's movie that even remotely approaches one of Leone's as to rhythm or intensity. Not everything in Leone is first class, but when he is good he's not even remotely approached by honest artisans like Corbucci or Sollima or Petroni. They don't have his sense of composition, his sense of rhythm, the ear for dialogues. To find Leone's betters you need to turn to the great ones of cinema like Fellini or Welles.


The dialogue between Kinski and LVC is nothing special (to me). I can think of many other instances in a Leone that betters that piece of dialogue.

"Small world isn't it?"

"yes and very very bad"


pretty elementary if you ask me

Non-leone sw have done better.

Must I really give examples?


...fine...


The dialogue in "The Grand Duel" alone can match and surpass that of FAFDM Kinski versus LVC scene. Pretty much every scene is littered with the same machismo talk as the scene you mention (but In my opinion is better).


But then again neither leone or Santi ever wrote their own dialogue anyway so...this arguement should have never been brought up.



As for "The Specialist", I'm not pointing out one particular scene but all the shoot outs (which there are few and far between). Well paced action and frenetic editing. Good stuff.


As for the climax of FOD, I agree one of the best (if not the best) scenes Leone directed(too bad the rest of the film is not even half as good). But off hand I can say that the opening to both "if you meet Sartana pray for your death" and "Light the fuse... sartana is coming" is on par with that scene or maybe even better.



If you classify sw as B-movies then you will have a biased against them. You will see them as "not worthy" of other more "sophisticated" films. I don't believe in such talk. If that makes me a neanderthal then so be it.

I give each film I watch the same amount of attention I give a Fellini, or Leone film. I don't discriminate.

I used to see B-movies, c-movies, etc. as unworthy pieces of garbage and only hailed the "masters" Fellini, Ford, Eisenstein, Godard,Truffaut, Bergman, etc.
This was me being ignorant. This was me being biased.
I try not to be that way anymore (though I still make my mistakes).



« Last Edit: October 07, 2006, 08:26:23 PM by The Firecracker » Logged



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« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2006, 08:19:56 PM »



As for the climax of FOD, I agree one of the best (if not the best) scenes Leone directed(too bad the rest of the film is not even half as good). But off hand I can say that the opening to both "if you meet Sartana pray for your death" and "Light the fuse... sartana is coming" is on par with that scene or maybe even better.




One of the best scenes Leone directed? I don't think so. Definitely the best scene in the film, but not one of the best Leone directed. I find the showdowns in all of his other Westerns to be far superior.

I don't think that main villains need to be killed in an "innovative" or "cool" way to make it better. With the more minor villains or henchmen, I agree that this might make it a little more enjoyable. But a bare-bones spaghetti showdown I think is the best way to kill off a main villain. The prologned preceedings of an act of violence are one of the highlights of Leone's films for me.

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« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2006, 08:30:33 PM »

One of the best scenes Leone directed? I don't think so. Definitely the best scene in the film, but not one of the best Leone directed. I find the showdowns in all of his other Westerns to be far superior.




The only thing that makes the others superior is Morricone's music. The Final confrontation in FOD doesn't rely on that (except for the first 2 minutes but that isn't even the exciting part).

The duels at the end of FAFDM and GBU are only phenomenal because of the music.

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« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2006, 08:36:20 PM »



I don't think that main villains need to be killed in an "innovative" or "cool" way to make it better. With the more minor villains or henchmen, I agree that this might make it a little more enjoyable.


Isn't ENJOYING a picture what a movie is all about?
Cinema is mostly for escapism, not to make a political point or to be an artsy fartsy.

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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2006, 08:44:17 PM »


Isn't ENJOYING a picture what a movie is all about?
Cinema is mostly for escapism, not to make a political point or to be an artsy fartsy.

When i said "this might make it more enjoyable" I meant that it might make it more enjoyable just when they kill off those little henchmen, you pointed out one of the flaws of FAFDM.

but, when it comes to the main villains, I would much more enjoy those showdowns. Instead of having the hero shoot a champagne bottle that makes the cork pop out which hits a hat stand and falls, thus making one of the bowling balls on top of a book case become dislodged and fall onthe ground, shaking the chandelier and make it fall on the villain.

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« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2006, 08:47:32 PM »



but, when it comes to the main villains, I would much more enjoy those showdowns. Instead of having the hero shoot a champagne bottle that makes the cork pop out which hits a hat stand and falls, thus making one of the bowling balls on top of a book case become dislodged and fall onthe ground, shaking the chandelier and make it fall on the villain.

This isn't a comedy hour. It's an sw.
The movies I mentioned in "interesting ways to kill a villain" section of my post all involve a showdown.

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« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2006, 08:49:38 PM »

This isn't a comedy hour. It's an sw.
The movies I mentioned in "interesting ways to kill a villain" section of my post all involve a showdown.

I was exaggerating (a lot).  What I really mean is that Leone's showdowns don't require an interesting way to kill a villain. But, as I'm guessing you will say, that's because the phenomenal music compensates.

And you'll have to excuse my lack of SW knowledge sometimes.

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« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2006, 08:52:48 PM »

I was exaggerating (a lot).  What I really mean is that Leone's showdowns don't require an interesting way to kill a villain. But, as I'm guessing you will say, that's because the phenomenal music compensates.

correctomundo.
Why is this so hard to understand?


Quote
And you'll have to excuse my lack of SW knowledge sometimes.
Quote

I won't. you have a seen a fair amount to more or less get what the genre is about though it has many transformation you have yet to experience.

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« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2006, 08:58:00 PM »

correctomundo.
Why is this so hard to understand?


I won't. you have a seen a fair amount to more or less get what the genre is about though it has many transformation you have yet to experience.

I know what the genre is all about, but i won't feel I'm with the big boys until I've seen the spaghettis I ordered and the Sartana movies you've sent me. I'm so excited.

But, the thing is, all of those examples you provided in that one post, I don't know what you're talking about because I've never seen any of those films.

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« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2006, 09:04:40 PM »

I know what the genre is all about, but i won't feel I'm with the big boys until I've seen the spaghettis I ordered and the Sartana movies you've sent me. I'm so excited.



Things get a bit different later on. Not everybody is a Corbucci or a Sollima and that is not a bad thing.

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« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2006, 09:06:43 PM »


Things get a bit different later on. Not everybody is a Corbucci or a Sollima, and that is not a bad thing.

The Sartana movies are actually what I'm excited the most about, because those will be the most "hardcore" spaghetti's I've ever seen. All of the other spaghetti's I've seen are ones I could easily acquire from Netflix/the local rental shop (Great Silence, Bullet for the General, Companeros, Run man run, Sabata, Navajo Joe, etc.)

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« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2006, 09:54:06 PM »

Quote
Cinema is mostly for escapism


The fact that you're spending much time posting here proves you wrong.

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« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2006, 09:59:48 PM »



The fact that you're spending much time posting here proves you wrong.
Vague comments don't help your arguement.

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« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2006, 10:13:29 PM »

I wasn't aware to be vague.

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