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Author Topic: Debra and Max love affair beginning ?  (Read 11421 times)
aaronson
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« on: July 02, 2003, 07:09:24 AM »

I'm wondering: after rape (but it was decided before) Debra left NY and went to California (Hollywood?)
after "death" Max went to california.
is it only a coincidence ? Have Deabra and Max begun a love affair during Noodle jail time ?

What your feeling about ?

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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2003, 08:30:00 AM »

Hmmmm, don't think so...
It might have been in Max's attitude, but I would say that was not something Debra could or would have done, knowing that Noodles eventually would be back from his jail time.
Just an opinion of course  Wink


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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2003, 01:09:59 PM »

I think it may have been possible.Don't forget,Deborah never really loved Noodles.She had great affection for him but no love.Think of the scene when Noodles comes out of jail and Deborah comes to see him in the speakeasy.She does not seem to be that pleased to see him.She even lost count of the days that Noodles was in jail.I think the only chance Noodles had of having Deborah as his girl was when they were young and they kiss.....until Max interupts them.

It is also notable that Max always seem to disapprove of Noodles being with Deborah,perhaps too much.........And ofcouse,Max never showed any real affection for Carol.

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aaronson
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2003, 01:45:34 AM »

The first meeting in California between Max and Deborah is still to be written .
But how could we imagine that , if she never liked Max before, she didnt say anything ? At least a call or a letter to her brother Fat Moe " hello Moe, guess who I met last night : Max , he is alive...I was surprised because all newspapers have annouced his death, what happened ? "
How could we imagine that she forgave him, she felt in love with him, making a son with him, with the guy whose killers have beaten his brother, searched to eliminate Noodles ,the guy who killed Patsy and Cockeye .

No ! If she has accepted that , it was because her travel to Hollywood was previously planned by Mafia and Max. It was a part of the plot and Max joint her after the bloody comedy.

That's all folks  Doctor Watson   Tongue

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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2003, 10:01:31 AM »

The first meeting in California between Max and Deborah is still to be written .
But how could we imagine that , if she never liked Max before, she didnt say anything ? At least a call or a letter to her brother Fat Moe " hello Moe, guess who I met last night : Max , he is alive...I was surprised because all newspapers have annouced his death, what happened ? "
How could we imagine that she forgave him, she felt in love with him, making a son with him, with the guy whose killers have beaten his brother, searched to eliminate Noodles ,the guy who killed Patsy and Cockeye .

No ! If she has accepted that , it was because her travel to Hollywood was previously planned by Mafia and Max. It was a part of the plot and Max joint her after the bloody comedy.

That's all folks  Doctor Watson   Tongue

Remember this film is shown from Noodles point of view, and Noodles doesn't know the answer to this question. It would seen to me that Max is obsessed with Noodles. When Noodles sees deborah, Max is jealous, he ultimatley teams up with her because he wants to live in Noodles place. The important thing is, when Noodles is faced with the horrible truth, first the son then the father, we he recognises them, but he turns away and refuses to accept it.

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aaronson
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2003, 02:24:36 PM »

. It would seen to me that Max is obsessed with Noodles. When Noodles sees deborah, Max is jealous, he ultimatley teams up with her because he wants to live in Noodles place.

ewie,you are right about Noodles and Max points of view,but what about Deborah attitude ? She awfully  wounded Noodles memory when she married Max. Only a revenge for the rape ?  Undecided

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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2003, 06:55:56 AM »

Well rape IS a terrible thing,maybe Deborah getting together with Max was a kind of revenge?Although we have speculated on Max and Deborah having a relationship early on,maybe we are wrong,maybe Deborah wanted a kind of revenge for the rape and got together with Max because of that.

As from Max's point of view,yes,you are totally right in saying it was another way for Max to live in Noodles' place.

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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2003, 09:50:37 AM »

Well rape IS a terrible thing,maybe Deborah getting together with Max was a kind of revenge?Although we have speculated on Max and Deborah having a relationship early on,maybe we are wrong,maybe Deborah wanted a kind of revenge for the rape and got together with Max because of that.

As from Max's point of view,yes,you are totally right in saying it was another way for Max to live in Noodles' place.

"All we have are our memories, Noodles if you walk out that door you won't have those anymore"
- Deborah still cares about Noodles and tries to save him from the truth. But Noodles is "curious" as, of course, are we the audience, and the image of a young Max as Secretary Bailey's son is like a kick in the guts. It's incredibly powerful, and DeNiro's reaction in Close Up is amazing. Does he beleive his eyes or not -
"You're afraid I'll turn into a pillar of salt?"

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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2003, 04:24:09 PM »

Remember, Noodles effectively disappeared, dropped off the face of the earth so to speak, Deborah could easily have assumed that Noodles was perhaps wearing concrete overshoes and slept with the fishes. She would also have assumed that Max was dead. Prehaps, she kept Max's secret even from her brother and helped to establish his new identity as a way to link to the innocents of her past. Just a thought.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2003, 04:25:06 PM by cigar joe » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2003, 05:23:39 AM »

Remember, Noodles effectively disappeared, dropped off the face of the earth so to speak, Deborah could easily have assumed that Noodles was perhaps wearing concrete overshoes and slept with the fishes. She would also have assumed that Max was dead. Prehaps, she kept Max's secret even from her brother and helped to establish his new identity as a way to link to the innocents of her past. Just a thought.

This is a very credible idea, in keeping with the nature of Debra and Max. "You're both alike, that's why you hate each other so much" as Noodles says to Debra, but ironically for Noodles, it's this likeness that brings them together and shuts him out.

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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2003, 07:16:57 AM »

What about this Idea:
Max and Debra have started their love affair while noodles was still in Jail (none of them have visited him during 10 years)
Max has a lot of connection so he could easily introduce Debra to Show business people because at that time gangsters and Cinema was quite closed together (remember Bugsy Siegel, Sinatra, and Richard Gere in Cotton Club)
But both of Max and Debra were VERY ambitious(Debra Speech in the speakeasy).
So what I think is: Max and Debra were lovers but loved Noodles a lot, If Noodles was still part of Max and Debra's Life they would not succeed in their Ambition (hospital Scene for Max and Dinner with Debra).
So when Max decided to join the mafia (Joe Pesci) the deal was without the burden of patsy, Cockeye and NOODles.
Max organised Debra' flees to california to avoid problems and wait till he was sure that noodles will not change his mind to set up the false riot with the cops.
However he loved taht much noodles that he knocked him down. and Noodles surived...

Finally Max saved Noodles Life....













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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2003, 03:43:04 PM »

I like this reference to showbusiness and gangsters by cedet. And the point about no one visiting Noodles in jail is interesting too. But I'm not sure Max saved his life, surely those syndicate hoods where at the behest of Frankie and Max to kill Noodles?













« Last Edit: July 13, 2003, 03:45:12 PM by Half-Soldier » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2003, 04:29:54 PM »

Yes, but at least he gave him a chance by not being at the riot...
and furthermore Max new that Noodles was at the Opium bar.
The killers first seek for Noodles in his appartment and then to Fat Moe's.

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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2003, 09:26:41 AM »

another good point, Noodles would have to go into hiding for the rest of his life, but at least be alive. As for Max and Debra, their plans together are all based on ambition and therefore plausable in their case, but their is not a wiff of love or effection between them during the whole movie. Perhaps this is what Noodles find so bewildering. It's heartbraking for him in one sense, but in another sense he simply cannot beleive his eyes, or chooses not to. Who knows?

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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2003, 10:02:56 AM »

Ok, there is no sign of affection between Max and Debra but a LOT of strange sign: When noodles is out of prison Max order him stoppong talking with debra and to join them, Max knows how Noodles lovez Debra, if he isn't jealous, why does he do it?

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