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: Warbeck's shooting  ( 7710 )
mike siegel
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« #15 : June 17, 2007, 01:00:08 PM »

DAVE JENKINS & CIGAR-JOE

you're on on this. I agree completely. Felt like this 20 years ago and still do.

But it is true, sometimes people over-analyze (like the French did on HAWKS in the 60's).
But not here.
And the guilt he carries around is there because he killed his friend. Whether he in a way asked
for it or not wouldn't make a difference. Same with 'judging': the minute he pulls the trigger he is judging. Whether his
friend asks for it or not is not making any (significant) difference. I think.

Great stuff. This trilogy has soo much to offer. The first one is perfect in style and power. This second one is a serious move forward towards character-driven drama, and the last one finally worked out on both levels perfectly.



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« #16 : June 18, 2007, 01:56:03 PM »

It's also important to keep in mind the parallel between Nolan's betrayal and Viellga's. Viellga probably would have gone along if Mallory had decided to exact revenge on him, but Mallory was not going to make that mistake twice. Nonetheless, Viellge felt the need to atone (as any man of honor who has failed would), and so chose to sacrifice his life in the train crash. It is interesting to compare this with OUATIA: when Noodles turns down Bailey's request to kill him, the Secretary decides to do the job himself. This is the lesson of Oedipus Rex: when society (or the gods) will not render judgment, a Great Soul must take on the task himself, even if it means self destruction.



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« #17 : June 18, 2007, 03:10:42 PM »

All the conjecture here and on the dvd about Sean, John, revenge,judging etc. is a load of horse manure.

Sean calls himself "john" because he knows Juan won't be able to pronounce "shawn".
The shooting in the pub has no hidden motivations: Sean shot the soldiers, his friend smiled because he thought they would BOTH escape, but Sean shot him instead for his apparent betrayal.

The idea of jealousy being a motive has no basis and Sean's "frozen" smile is in the imagination of those who see it.

BTW I have always interpreted the final flashback as a symbolic FANTASY. The girl represents Ireland and sharing her symbolizes the united and free country
that Sean dreamed of but never came to pass.
This interpretation can be backed up by the fact that we never see the menage until the end, when Sean is dying. It's a "what might have been" reverie.


"Other Morton's will come along  and they'll kill it off"

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http://thekinskifiles.blogspot.com/2009/01/cinemaretro-13-big-gundown.html
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« #18 : June 18, 2007, 03:21:25 PM »

Sean calls himself "john" because he knows Juan won't be able to pronounce "shawn".

I never bought this theory.  Maybe not spell it (especially since he can't even read...) but he certainly had no problem pronouncing Auschenbach.

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« #19 : June 18, 2007, 03:23:43 PM »

BTW I have always interpreted the final flashback as a symbolic FANTASY. The girl represents Ireland and sharing her symbolizes the united and free country
that Sean dreamed of but never came to pass.
This interpretation can be backed up by the fact that we never see the menage until the end, when Sean is dying. It's a "what might have been" reverie.
That is certainly one possible interpretation. The flashback is nonetheless ambiguous enough to call forth other equally possible interpretations.



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« #20 : June 18, 2007, 03:39:40 PM »

It's also important to keep in mind the parallel between Nolan's betrayal and Viellga's. Viellga probably would have gone along if Mallory had decided to exact revenge on him, but Mallory was not going to make that mistake twice. Nonetheless, Viellge felt the need to atone (as any man of honor who has failed would), and so chose to sacrifice his life in the train crash.
You nailed it Dave. I believe this parallel backs up our claim that Nolan chose death as the most  honorable and noble option.
Nolan may not have remained grinning after being shot, but who would,  after getting a load of buckshot in the
chest.

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« #21 : June 18, 2007, 03:46:56 PM »

Nolan didn't nod saying "shoot me" he was saying "thanks for freeing me."


He wasn't expecting Sean to kill him. If he was, he wouldn't smile up to moment he was shot.


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« #22 : June 18, 2007, 04:05:41 PM »

Again Peace, I respectfully disagree. I thought his "smile" was more of a grin,
as in accepting his fate with dignity. Just my opinion. :-\


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« #23 : June 19, 2007, 12:48:15 PM »

Again Peace, I respectfully disagree. I thought his "smile" was more of a grin,
as in accepting his fate with dignity. Just my opinion. :-\



I think that if he was excepting his fate, he would have had a more melancholy look on his face.   


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« #24 : June 19, 2007, 04:40:37 PM »

Not if he was happy to die.



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« #25 : June 20, 2007, 12:59:16 PM »

Not if he was happy to die.

Here's a good example to prove my point.


Nolan and Dr. Villega's fates are parallel. Nolan betrayed his fellow revolutionaries and in return he was executed by his old friend Sean Mallory. My theory is that he wasn't expecting to be shot because he was clearly smiling, but everyone claims that Nolan was smiling because he knew what he has done and was willing to die.

Now in Villega's case, Mallory shames him. Then when he leaps from the train, he sees that Villega did not. Villega at that point was truly willing to die, but did he smile as the two trains were about to collide? No. He still kept his look of melancholy and received his fate.


If Nolan was willing or expecting to die, no matter how noble the cause, no matter how much he was shamed, he wouldn't have smiled.


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« #26 : June 21, 2007, 02:40:37 AM »

Nolan's smile before his execution at the hands of Mallory, is like that of the Mona Lisa. Hard to interpret. I see a nervous smile inviting Mallory to shoot.
The expression on Mallory's face is telling. The anger he expresses is so intense and seems aimed as much at himself for shooting than at Nolan for his betrayal.
The fact that Nolan and Villega react differently to their upcoming doom is true to life: 2 persons 2 reactions.
It would have seemed so artificial if their reactions had been the same. I just can't see Villega smiling at an oncoming train. Nolan smiles as if saying: it's alright friend.


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« #27 : June 21, 2007, 09:00:50 AM »

I'm sure Mallory wouldn't smile at a rifle either, no matter who's pulling the trigger.



Besides, I'm sure being shot is far more painful than being in a train crash. At least in the crash it would happen so quick that you wouldn't feel a thing.


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« #28 : June 21, 2007, 05:11:51 PM »

Nolan's smile before his execution at the hands of Mallory, is like that of the Mona Lisa. Hard to interpret. I see a nervous smile inviting Mallory to shoot.
The expression on Mallory's face is telling. The anger he expresses is so intense and seems aimed as much at himself for shooting than at Nolan for his betrayal.
The fact that Nolan and Villega react differently to their upcoming doom is true to life: 2 persons 2 reactions.
It would have seemed so artificial if their reactions had been the same. I just can't see Villega smiling at an oncoming train. Nolan smiles as if saying: it's alright friend.

Couldn't have said it any better SSS.

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