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Author Topic: How could it possibly be a dream?  (Read 22686 times)
guybrush
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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2003, 07:06:47 AM »

But why did you stop considering the 68' as a Dream?

Because I tend to be too rational and there are too many modern things showed in the events of  '68 which no dream made in '33 could possibly conceive (TV sets, frisbees, phone boots in the streets, etc.).

On the other hand if I want to be rational through and through, there's a point in favour of the dream thing:
ok, we know that Noodles had been living in the middle of nowhere for 35 years. He might have gone to bed early all along, but how couldn't he ever see on TV or the newspapers the face of a fellow making a career in California as a businessman and later on as a politician? Noodles was able to recognise Max after 35 years, so he would have recognised him any time had he seen him on newspapers during his exile. And he should have seen him plenty of times in 35 years.
Come on, does that make sense? Not at all... therefore it must be a dream...


« Last Edit: July 14, 2003, 07:20:02 AM by guybrush » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2003, 07:14:44 AM »

He might have recognized him, that is the point but he might not have wanted to admit it...
It is not a thing easy to admit that the guy you think is dead because of you is finally alive and stole your life...
In fact I have never thought that the 68' part was a dream before reading it in forums!!
And by the way he Only saw jimmy Conway who is a Syndicat Leader only with Moe in 68'...
so i don't think that is the point

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Jon
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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2003, 09:40:25 AM »

Some very good points.it is interesting that in 1068,Noodles,with the exception of the cemetary keeper,only meets people who he knew years before.

However,I must say one thing.A partial reason for Noodles' final smile must be that he is stoned...............!

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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2003, 10:14:23 AM »

Good points!!!
But he also speak to the butler in Bailey's Mansion.
But to return to the stoned thing, Maybe at least at this moment he has forgotten everything and that why he's happy...everything but "good souvenirs"

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BDR529
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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2003, 02:52:25 AM »

The way I've always seen it he smiles because the opium takes his mind away from reality and everything that's happened and it's one of the few moments of real happiness (if false drug-induced happiness).l

I've always favored the dream theory because it clears up a lot of things for me.  Everything in '68 is really hazy and, well, dreamlike; Deborah hasn't aged much; Deborah seems much happier to see Noodles 35 years after he viciously raped her than I would imagine; and most importantly, Noodles concocts in his dream a fairly implausible explanation and ties up all his loose ends.  Noodles didn't betray Max, Max betrayed him, and Noodles gets his moment of vindication by facing Max and refusing to kill him.  It always seemed unlikely to me that Max (a presumably well-known bootlegger) could magically turn into Secretary Bailey.

The whole anachronism thing had also occured to me, and I considered it artistic lisence.  It is a dream, after all, and perhaps we're only seeing our own interpretation of his dream... but anyway I'm really getting carried away and I don't think I'm explaining myself half as well as I would like.  Sorry...  Roll Eyes

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Pesci
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« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2003, 12:13:30 PM »

Perhaps he just smiles because he smoked the opium?  Wink

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Nephilim
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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2003, 03:26:21 PM »

Dear, dear, dear!

The reason why Noodles smiles at the end of the movie is that, in his drug addled state, he has imagined this whole set of events that take away his guilt over the death of his friends (which WAS his fault)

The whole movie is an attempt by Noodles to gain redemption for his sins against his friends, which he does not get, as the syndicate assassins are just about to kill him.

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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2003, 04:21:18 PM »

i agree completely that the smile is brought on by opium. i belive that '68 was not a dream in any way. but of course noodles could not have known that in '33. so there was no reason for a smile, especially such a dumb one...

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N00dles
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« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2003, 11:34:44 AM »

It always seemed unlikely to me that Max (a presumably well-known bootlegger) could magically turn into Secretary Bailey.

1.000.000 $ may simplify such an intention ...

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Garry Cowell
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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2003, 04:02:29 AM »

I think the smile is more a nod to the audience than the 'character' smiling. Bear in mind be looks straight into the camera and THEN smiles. In the second take he probably blew a 'raspberry'!  Grin

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aaronson
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« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2003, 06:44:49 AM »

The way I've always seen it he smiles because the opium takes his mind away from reality and everything that's happened and it's one of the few moments of real happiness (if false drug-induced happiness).l

I've always favored the dream theory because it clears up a lot of things for me.  Everything in '68 is really hazy and, well, dreamlike; Deborah hasn't aged much; Deborah seems much happier to see Noodles 35 years after he viciously raped her than I would imagine; and most importantly, Noodles concocts in his dream a fairly implausible explanation and ties up all his loose ends.  Noodles didn't betray Max, Max betrayed him, and Noodles gets his moment of vindication by facing Max and refusing to kill him.  It always seemed unlikely to me that Max (a presumably well-known bootlegger) could magically turn into Secretary Bailey.

Brilliant, even I never believed in the "Dream theory". Am I convinced ? In any case your approach is attractive.

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Walter
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2003, 06:48:00 PM »

Let's get this straight: Noodles tips off the cops, Max knocks him cold and when he wakes up, it is over. He then goes to the opium den, have his pipe made ready, smokes it, then he smiles.

Whether or not everything was a dream, the dream comes after the smile. Hence, the dream couldn't explain the smile.

I love the discussion of why he smiles, though. Could be that he have figured out Max - perhaps seen that it wasn't him burnt on the street - and feel both guiltless, and, in spite of it all, happy that his friend is alive.
 
Or it could be the opium kicking in, sure.

Or, it could be that he finally sees a way out of crime. Several scenes and snips of dialogue can hint that Noodles is tired of the life as a villain, and he is not very pleased about what he has become. He was a thief as a kid in poverty, but even if he spent his formative years in prison, he ended up a robber, a rapist and a murderer. Maybe he smiles because he sees a way out, a chance to regain his decency now that he doesnt have to answer to Max anymore.  

The dream theory annoys me. The "it was only a dream"-punchline is old, weary and mostly a cheat on the viewer.

I think Leone was a lot bigger than that.

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« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2003, 03:38:32 AM »

The dream theory annoys me. The "it was only a dream"-punchline is old, weary and mostly a cheat on the viewer.

I think Leone was a lot bigger than that.

I fully agree with you . But let's lesson the arguments of the other party , the theory of a story invented by Noodles to keep  "le beau role" (in French) is interesting no ? He is no more a traitor, now it's Max, he is no more a raper, now Debra is cruel,he is no more a killer now he is a poor victim sleeping early.

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« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2003, 09:51:12 AM »

I don't agree with "Le beau role" Theorie, baecause in the 68, Noodles is the poor guy, He has lost everything he cared...but he has his redemption with behing not responsible for the death of his friend....he is alone...but anyway he sent the cops after his firend in the 30's...so he started everything...

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guybrush
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« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2003, 02:34:08 AM »

...Whether or not everything was a dream, the dream comes after the smile. Hence, the dream couldn't explain the smile...
Walter, sorry, maybe I'm nuts, but can't understand what makes you so sure about the dream definitely coming after the smile. why shouldn't it be vice versa?

besides, about that theory of the dream being a cheat on the viewer... please remember that the first to mention the dream thing was Leone himself. So he said  to a spectator after the film was showed for the first time in a theater in Rome, back in the 80's... you can check this in the book by that guy Frayling, if you have the time to have a look into it.

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