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Author Topic: Why do we care about Noodles?  (Read 10038 times)
cedet
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2003, 09:29:28 AM »

You are both missing the point I made. The point I was making was that cedet was seeing the rape purely in terms of the bad effect it was to have on the man rather than the woman, which I found very strange. I think most human beings, when confronted by a rape scene would be feeling for the victim, the woman, before worrying about the effect it will have on the rapist. cedet obviously sees it differently and is entitled to, and I'm entitled to say I think that's a warped sense of priority.

I see only the effetcs it produce on Noodles because that's the one we follow, we care about Debra as as supporting role...only Noodles feelings are important in that scene.
just like in the scene at the station, we feel "Noodles too late, she's gone and wont talk to you" not "The bad rappist is here Debra"....and anyway he pays for that rappe in 68' (or dream) when he learns that she betrayed him with Max and take care of his(her?) child...

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Sanjuro
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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2003, 01:42:27 PM »

When Deborah is raped by Noodles, we don't feel for her? I don't think that's true. We can feel her fear and pain as we feel Noodle's  dilemma at the same time. And I don't think Deborah becomes a lover of Max to take her revenge on Noodles.

But those are besides the point. The question here is, why do we still care about Noodles in spite of his antiheroic character. He is a bad kid, rapes two women and is cold to his old freind, Fat Moe. Don't you think it's a big question how we can relate to a character like that as a hero of a drama? I hope somebody can answer to this question.    

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« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2003, 05:48:43 AM »

I agree with you Sanjuro. Of COURSE any right-minded human being feels for Deborah in that scene. And of COURSE we think Noodles should stop NOT because of the effect his rape will have on him but ONE HUNDRED PER CENT that he should stop because of the effect it will have on Deborah.

Similarly, we don't fall for this crap about 'Noodles pays for it' because she goes off with Max. What a ridiculous thing to say. Does that really even begin to make him pay for raping someone? No it doesn't.

I can only assume that some of these posts have been jokes because they display some horrendous attitudes to rape. If not, I suggest certain people take a long look at themselves.

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cedet
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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2003, 07:59:33 AM »

Similarly, we don't fall for this crap about 'Noodles pays for it' because she goes off with Max. What a ridiculous thing to say. Does that really even begin to make him pay for raping someone? No it doesn't.

IT does in certain ways for Noodles. the HERO of OUATIA is NOODLES, we fear for Him, Debra is the love of his life, we'are sad that the love affair didn't work and after all Noodles deserved what happened but that's all...Debra isn't a sympathic character just like Max...

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BDR529
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« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2003, 02:21:11 AM »

cedet wrote: "so I suggest to watch only PG movie from Disney"

BDR529: "It always boggles my mind how people will have no problem with a dozen or more murders in a film but will reply to a rape with outrage and cries of "was that really necessary?"

You are both missing the point I made. The point I was making was that cedet was seeing the rape purely in terms of the bad effect it was to have on the man rather than the woman, which I found very strange. I think most human beings, when confronted by a rape scene would be feeling for the victim, the woman, before worrying about the effect it will have on the rapist. cedet obviously sees it differently and is entitled to, and I'm entitled to say I think that's a warped sense of priority.

And BDR529, I never said ""was that really necessary?" in terms of that scene, neither did anyone else on this thread.


Sorry about the misunderstanding.  I wasn't directly quoting; I was talking about an attitude I've seen in threads on this board and others, and in conversation (about this specific scene and others in other films).  I thought I was seeing the same attitude here, maybe I was wrong.  Anyway, maybe cedet was using "sympathetic" in a more "cinematic" sense--that is, we continue to identify with him as our connection to the film; as the protagonist.  There are plenty of sympathetic characters in films that are still very unlikable, in my opinion, and vice versa!  Or maybe that's not what he meant.  But it certainly didn't seem to me like he was excusing the rape.

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cedet
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« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2003, 03:06:50 AM »

I am not excusing the rape, at any moments, I just say that Only noodles feelings interests Us, the rape is only one "fatal mistake", and anyway, Leone un-dramatized the sex relation in OUATIA .

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Debby-2000
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2003, 10:08:50 AM »

We don't care about Noodles, that fool. But it's fun to watch his tragic and deserved downfall. He deserves every inch he gets, including Max's and Sergio's brilliant tricks.

He is the Barton Fink of the gangster era.

In OUATITW Leone gave us a man who devoted all of his life to revenge.

In OUATIA Leone gave us a man, who lives all of his life in fear of being hit by revenge, and who even erects a mausoleum for the guys whose death he was partly responsible for. And in the end it turns out that the two people he loved concurred to ditch him straight and open, and he never suspected. And he was ditched so deservedly that revenge was not an option, not even to him.


« Last Edit: November 17, 2003, 10:23:35 AM by Debby-2000 » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2003, 12:03:09 PM »

Oh, I wouldn't say we don't care about Noodles.  Even though his behavior is depraved, he has some redeeming qualities that make you care for him and even root for him.  Even after the rape scene, he gives that sheepish look of remorse that makes you realize that he realizes that he once again let his bestial side take over - to his infinite regret.

Even when he betrays his friends he does it from good intentions - he'd rather see them in jail than dead, so he makes what he thinks is the best decision in those circumstances.

That's one of the main themes of this movie, if you look at it as a continuum of Leone's work.  This is a harsh and brutal country that requires an equally brutal response by the humans who fight to survive in it.  And if you want to get ahead you have to resort to whatever means necessary.  So these men of ambition make these harsh decisions to lead their lives in a brutal manner to make it in this country, and they pay the price with their humanity.  

But maybe they do have some redeeming qualities.  Even Max has a human side, where he realizes his end is coming and suddenly starts trying to make amends for his sins.  That's where Burt Young's character fits in - yeah, our guys are nasty pieces of work but compared to that scumbag they're saints.

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James C Gutierrez
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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2003, 07:48:18 PM »

Sanjuro asked

"But those are besides the point. The question here is, why do we still care about Noodles in spite of his antiheroic character. He is a bad kid, rapes two women and is cold to his old freind, Fat Moe. Don't you think it's a big question how we can relate to a character like that as a hero of a drama? I hope somebody can answer to this question."


Why do we still continue to care? Because we've always cared, we still feel for him. Bad kid? Not all bad. Look how he throws his life on the line when Dominic goes down, and how he takes the rap without complaining. He's a rude street kid but not without likeability and promise,  Debra sees that in him, and also a sensitive side , which may actually be his tragic flaw...and not all that sensitive in a good way: his touchiness gets him into lots of trouble . Passiveness, dreaminess, bottled up anger all get muddled up inside him, and manifest in weird, inappropriate self-destructive ways after a certain point in his story...probably when he emerges from Jail,  and finds himself -for not the last time in his life- the man who got left behind. Before prison, Noodles was the brains and brawn of the operation as much as Max. Now he's been supplanted, and can only stir his drink over and over to express his dissatisfaction,  sneak a phone call to "bring back the good old days" for Max'es "own good" out of very mixed motivations including revenge, and then let the phone ring and ring  in his ears accusinlg him ever after, unable to face what and who is on the other end, and what he is himself.

We're caught in his unresolvable inner state: good guy or bad guy, he doesn't know for sure, and the amends he tries to make in the flash forward may only be a dream. Even if it is nothing but a fantasy (there's no definitive yes/no to this possibility the way the film got edited), though,  that future Leone imagines for Noodles shows us a very human character we can't help but feel for. The way De Niro plays him is very close to the vest, a sensitive but very tough guy. He's cold to Moe because he doesn't respond comfortably to affection, a very private closed-off individual. That doesn't make him unaffectionate.however, just incapable of showing love. When he tries to with Debra, he shockingly shows all the hate thats in him, as well, the street kid's curse, the stain on his soul, the only "positive" way he can react to anything is the gangster's way, to kill it, and that's what he does to Debra's affection...


« Last Edit: November 29, 2003, 07:51:02 PM by James C Gutierrez » Logged
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