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Author Topic: The Magnificent Seven (1960)  (Read 27124 times)
Novecento
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« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2017, 11:45:07 AM »

Sam Peckinpah himself said that he made the Wild Bunch's fight scenes brutal in response to the lackluster effort in the Magnificent Seven.

That's interesting - do you know where he is recorded as saying that?

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« Reply #106 on: January 04, 2017, 12:29:01 PM »

That's interesting - do you know where he is recorded as saying that?

I read it in several places. Not a direct quote from Sam himself, but it was referenced by several sources that Sam felt this way not only about the Magnificent Seven, but all Westerns that were made up until he made the Wild Bunch:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2010/05/11/igns-top-25-westerns-of-all-time?page=5


Look under the production notes in this wiki article:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wild_Bunch

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noodles_leone
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« Reply #107 on: January 04, 2017, 03:04:44 PM »

I've also read that he was directly reacting to The Professionals but I have never seen a direct quote on that.

The generic quote I always come across is from his interview by Bertrand Tavernier in Combat (16 october 1969):

Quote
J’ai fait ce film […] parce que j’étais très en colère contre toute une mythologie hollywoodienne, contre une certaine manière de présenter les hors-la-loi, les criminels, contre un romantisme de la violence […] C’est un film sur la mauvaise conscience de l’Amérique

Very literal translation:

"I've done this film [...] because I was very angry against that hollywood mythology, against a certain way to show outlaws and criminals, against romanticising violence [...] It's a film about America's guilty conscience."

As you can see, he doesn't give any title in the quote but he may in the full interview. If someone finds it...

« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 04:11:14 AM by noodles_leone » Logged


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« Reply #108 on: January 05, 2017, 03:46:46 AM »

Peckinpah said a lot of things if the days were long ...

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« Reply #109 on: January 05, 2017, 04:12:27 AM »

Peckinpah said a lot of things if the days were long ...

Did DJ just hack your account?

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« Reply #110 on: January 05, 2017, 05:17:46 AM »

One reason why Peckinpah & Leone were able to put new life into the western genre was the fact that they were anti-glamour. Especially Peckinpah didn't like happy endings very much nor did he care for the way Hollywood dressed up their heroes Smiley. He wanted realism, not in terms of cinema verite but regarding authentic believable characters and situations. He pursued that from the get go: in THE WESTERNER, perhaps the only western series made for an adult audience. In THE DEADLY COMPANIONS he wanted to bring his idea of the west (dirty, stinky, dead flies & corpses) but he wasn't allowed to of course. He did that all before WILD BUNCH nevertheless, especially in MAJOR DUNDEE. He shot very gory scenes for DUNDEE, slow-motion and blood and all. 1964 mind you. 90% was cut of course. He didn't like the clean wardrobe common back then. DUNDEE is wardrobe-wise one of my all-time favorites. Those guys really suffer and their clothes really age during their journey. Gordy Dawson achieved that and Sam new he needed and wanted that man Smiley (the worked together until GARCIA, which Gordy co-wrote etc. ).
That was before Leone started to care about wardrobe a lot (what a difference from FISTFUL to OUATITW just 4 years later).

I have some nasty comments of Peckinpah regarding certain Hollywood films but he preferred to talk about films he loved, he cared for good drama (OX-BOW INCIDENT was one of his favorites) and "foreign" films.

MAGNIFICENT SEVEN is a great picture just for its energy, coolness, casting, power. I don't understand how a film lover cannot embrace this film. Just to see McQueen, Bronson & Coburn together makes me happy Smiley. But in terms of a certain style and look it is still a 50s movie, don't forget that. But it opened up the 60s in a way. I don't think it really works 100% for "regular" audiences if you see it for the first time these days.
Anyway, what I never liked about it was part of the wardrobe - 50s again. Sturges couldn't dress up the Mexicans the way he wanted it (more dirty for sure) and the clean look was about the only think I really didn't like that much, because when I first saw it in 1980 I also saw WILD BUNCH & OUATITW for the first time Smiley.

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« Reply #111 on: January 05, 2017, 05:56:33 AM »

One reason why Peckinpah & Leone were able to put new life into the western genre was the fact that they were anti-glamour. Especially Peckinpah didn't like happy endings very much nor did he care for the way Hollywood dressed up their heroes Smiley. He wanted realism, not in terms of cinema verite but regarding authentic believable characters and situations. He pursued that from the get go: in THE WESTERNER, perhaps the only western series made for an adult audience. In THE DEADLY COMPANIONS he wanted to bring his idea of the west (dirty, stinky, dead flies & corpses) but he wasn't allowed to of course. He did that all before WILD BUNCH nevertheless, especially in MAJOR DUNDEE. He shot very gory scenes for DUNDEE, slow-motion and blood and all. 1964 mind you. 90% was cut of course. He didn't like the clean wardrobe common back then. DUNDEE is wardrobe-wise one of my all-time favorites. Those guys really suffer and their clothes really age during their journey. Gordy Dawson achieved that and Sam new he needed and wanted that man Smiley (the worked together until GARCIA, which Gordy co-wrote etc. ).
That was before Leone started to care about wardrobe a lot (what a difference from FISTFUL to OUATITW just 4 years later).

I have some nasty comments of Peckinpah regarding certain Hollywood films but he preferred to talk about films he loved, he cared for good drama (OX-BOW INCIDENT was one of his favorites) and "foreign" films.

MAGNIFICENT SEVEN is a great picture just for its energy, coolness, casting, power. I don't understand how a film lover cannot embrace this film. Just to see McQueen, Bronson & Coburn together makes me happy Smiley. But in terms of a certain style and look it is still a 50s movie, don't forget that. But it opened up the 60s in a way. I don't think it really works 100% for "regular" audiences if you see it for the first time these days.
Anyway, what I never liked about it was part of the wardrobe - 50s again. Sturges couldn't dress up the Mexicans the way he wanted it (more dirty for sure) and the clean look was about the only think I really didn't like that much, because when I first saw it in 1980 I also saw WILD BUNCH & OUATITW for the first time Smiley.

I agree that MOST people today who don't look at the art in movies, would not like most movies back from the 50s, 60s and earlier that weren't over the top, hollywood blockbusters like they make today. Thats not my problem with the gunfights in Magnificent Seven.  The problem i had was they grouped those superstars you named into one movie and built up expectations of something DIFFERENT than the normal gunfights you saw back then.  Peckinpah, a director, felt the same. 

To me,  part of the fun of movies is being able to discuss what you like or don't like about them. I especially like discussing movies that have or had potential to become masterpieces, but fell short. I think the original and remake of Magnificent Seven both fell short of my expectations.  Neither had that perfect balance that i look for in Westerns...

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« Reply #112 on: January 05, 2017, 06:06:47 AM »

But there were enough dirty westerns made before, already in the 40s actually, already in the silent era already. All this talk about the clean westerns before Leone is total bullshit. Of course there were many clean looking westerns, but the important western directors always had a soft spot for dirty looking heroes and a rough atmosphere.

You can't expect end-60s violence in a film of 1960, especially not in a Hollywood movie from 1960. But there were definitely more violent films made before, and surely also a lot Peckinpah and Leone couln't complain about their depicting of screen violence.
But Mag 7 is generally in many aspects a softened film, softer than any western Sturges made before, and actually all of Sturges earlier westerns are better (includes his debut The Walking Hills), but on the other hand Mag 7 had also some new elements and belongs to the films which were a direct influence for Leone.

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« Reply #113 on: January 05, 2017, 06:11:15 AM »

Did DJ just hack your account?

No, not really, its a well known fact. Sam often enough had contradicted himself and he liked to exaggerate anyway.


(DJ is in fact one of my installed autobot writers, and he/it does his job very well, doesn't he/it?)

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« Reply #114 on: January 05, 2017, 06:23:44 AM »

No, not really, its a well known fact. Sam often enough had contradicted himself and he liked to exaggerate anyway.

Another trait him and Leone had in common!

(DJ is in fact one of my installed autobot writers, and he/it does his job very well, doesn't he/it?)

He's doing fine, a tad too automated from time to time but that's part of his (amazing) charm, I guess.

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« Reply #115 on: January 05, 2017, 09:10:17 AM »

Another trait him and Leone had in common!

To quote Victor Mature as Doc Holliday, "HE, not HIM"  Wink

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« Reply #116 on: January 06, 2017, 04:02:46 PM »

The Hollywood and television Westerns just presented the actors in their contemporary look - specifically short, slicked back hair.
Men in the 19th century wore long hair and beards - not all , but many!

I think Klaus Kinski in FAFD may have been the first "long-hair" in 60's westerns!
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