"Something to do with death"

[cigar joe]

Hmmm, I'm not so sure about that. The Golden Spike was driven in 1869, and if Morton's transcontinental adventure is supposed to be analogous, then by your reckoning Frank hung Harmonica's brother in 1844--possible, but an awful early date for desperados to be inhabiting Monument Valley. I'd be more inclined to go with 1854, and the reason Harmonica couldn't catch up with Frank any earlier than he did was because he, like so many, got caught up in the War Between the States. Why does Harmonica look so old then? Well, hard living can do that to a man. He may look 40, but he's really a very weary 30.

Oh, Dave you disappoint me with this, I though you were on top of this, lol.

The railroad is not the "first" transcontinental RR, its based on the Santa Fe which was built in the 1880's, in fact I posted the original route survey map of the railroad and its title "The Atlantic & Pacific RR", ring a bell?, and low and behold the stations on the tickets that Jack Elam holds are "actual" stations/sidings along the route.

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=4166.0

[drinkanddestroy]

Is there another thread where this topic is discussed more deeply? The reason I ask is that I always assumed that this sticky thread was THE place for discussion of all aspects of the supernatural theory; but now, I am learning for the first time the possibility that I completely misunderstood the timeline of the stdwd theory, ie. I was completely unaware of the dead young Harmonica theory; I just read this entire thread from beginning to end yesterday, and I do not recall seeing anything discussing (in any serious depth) this possibility of Harmonica being killed as a child by Frank... so if you can direct me to another thread  that I can read where this issue is discussed more deeply I would really appreciate it, cuz I'd hate to waste more of your time with my ignorance of topics that may have been discussed in-depth years ago  

2 quick points I wanna mention on this topic:

1. If any of you have Frayling's Spaghetti Westerns handy, read the first paragraph of p. 200 I'd be interested to hear whether Frayling's discussion of Harmonica's supernatural character fits with yours'

2. CJ: I am surprised you didn't mention what may be your best proof of all: Harmonica's clothing seem to have grown along with him! When you mentioned his clothing being the same as when he was a kid, my initial response above theory was that he was traumatized by his bro's death and his world "stopped" at that moment like Miss Havisham; but I realized that this only works for an adult who need not buy new clothing but can wear the same actual clothes for years and years. But that is impossible for Harmonica, cuz he would have outgrown 'em! That is a very serious point, unless you believe he went to the store and consistently bought the same clothes for 30 years...  

[cigar joe]

Is there another thread where this topic is discussed more deeply? The reason I ask is that I always assumed that this sticky thread was THE place for discussion of all aspects of the supernatural theory; but now, I am learning for the first time the possibility that I completely misunderstood the timeline of the stdwd theory, ie. I was completely unaware of the dead young Harmonica theory; I just read this entire thread from beginning to end yesterday, and I do not recall seeing anything discussing (in any serious depth) this possibility of Harmonica being killed as a child by Frank... so if you can direct me to another thread  that I can read where this issue is discussed more deeply I would really appreciate it, cuz I'd hate to waste more of your time with my ignorance of topics that may have been discussed in-depth years ago  

2 quick points I wanna mention on this topic:

1. If any of you have Frayling's Spaghetti Westerns handy, read the first paragraph of p. 200 I'd be interested to hear whether Frayling's discussion of Harmonica's supernatural character fits with yours'

2. CJ: I am surprised you didn't mention what may be your best proof of all: Harmonica's clothing seem to have grown along with him! When you mentioned his clothing being the same as when he was a kid, my initial response above theory was that he was traumatized by his bro's death and his world "stopped" at that moment like Miss Havisham; but I realized that this only works for an adult who need not buy new clothing but can wear the same actual clothes for years and years. But that is impossible for Harmonica, cuz he would have outgrown 'em! That is a very serious point, unless you believe he went to the store and consistently bought the same clothes for 30 years...  

We probably discussed somewhere on the OUTITW board in some un-related topic like we started to on DYS soundtrack and never gave it its own thread, then never retrieved it to put it in the correct thread, (me, Dust Devil & Banjo are fairly recent added to the ranks of moderators) feel free to go thru them all you never know what you'll find, ps if you do find it I can merge it back into this one

As far as Frayling, there are a minor few faux pas in his seminal work so be aware of that, check for a STDWD book thread to see what I mean. 

[drinkanddestroy]

We probably discussed somewhere on the OUTITW board in some un-related topic like we started to on DYS soundtrack and never gave it its own thread, then never retrieved it to put it in the correct thread, (me, Dust Devil & Banjo are fairly recent added to the ranks of moderators) feel free to go thru them all you never know what you'll find, ps if you do find it I can merge it back into this one

As far as Frayling, there are a minor few faux pas in his seminal work so be aware of that, check for a STDWD book thread to see what I mean.  

before making a new thread, I always check the sticky threads plus a few recent pages of newest threads, but I must admit that I do not go back and check all 50+ pages of old threads...  

RE: Frayling: nobody's perfect, though among mere mortals, he is my hero. He opened up the world of Leone to me (and probably millions of others...)

[cigar joe]

See my post above.

Both you and DJ are right the resurrection was probably sometime before the massacre at McBain's (i.e., the appointments) how long, we don't quite know, and like you said the infanticide probably triggered the final speed up to the denouement.

[dave jenkins]

Oh, Dave you disappoint me with this, I though you were on top of this, lol.

The railroad is not the "first" transcontinental RR, its based on the Santa Fe which was built in the 1880's, in fact I posted the original route survey map of the railroad and its title "The Atlantic & Pacific RR", ring a bell?, and low and behold the stations on the tickets that Jack Elam holds are "actual" stations/sidings along the route.

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=4166.0

Oops, right, it's coming back to me now. Sorry, I guess I had a senior moment. Let me call an "Emily Litella" on the play.

[cigar joe]

Both you and DJ are right the resurrection was probably sometime before the massacre at McBain's (i.e., the appointments) how long, we don't quite know, and like you said the infanticide probably triggered the final speed up to the denouement.

But wait a minute do they actually say more than one appointment, or does Frank just say "So you're the one that makes appointments" I think it may only be that one appointment. You wouldn't say in normal informal speech "so you're the one that makes an appointment"?

[drinkanddestroy]

when Frank says "so you're the one who makes appointments," I never took that to mean anything besides the appointment at Cattle Corner. But then again, we've established that I have zero imagination, so who knows... 

[cigar joe]

when Frank says "so you're the one who makes appointments," I never took that to mean anything besides the appointment at Cattle Corner. But then again, we've established that I have zero imagination, so who knows... 

If that is the case then I'll stick to Harmonica "resurrecting" the moment Frank decides to kill the McBain family.

[drinkanddestroy]

A couple more points, cj:

1. Why is Harmonica's gunshot hole visible in the trading post scene? I understand the theory that he is not affected by all the rules that most humans are cuz of his "stdwd" qualities; hence (I believe) the hole is not seen after the trading post scene. However, why should it be visible in the trading post? Do you say that his stdwd qualities haven't taken effect yet in the trading post?

2. One of  the reasons you mentioned in support of your theories is that if Harmonica was never killed before this movie, then he would have tried to take revenge on Frank long ago, not wait till decades later, cuz you say it wouldn't have been easy for Frank to have remained hidden in the American Southwest for all those years.
I am just wondering why this issue bothers you so much: Frank was presumably Morton's hitman for decades, traveling all across the country with his gang, "clearing the tracks" for Morton and his company. I am sure he did not have a listed number in the phone book. It wouldn't have been that easy for Harmonica to have found and killed him. (It is reasonable to say that perhaps Frank may have even been gone from Arizona for many decades, and has only returned now that the railroad is extending past Flagstone and his help is needed again). To be sure, Harmonica is also a drifter who has probably done his own traveling, and probably hasn't spent the last 30+ on a farm. But I do not think it would have necessarily been that easy for Harmonica to have found Frank as soon as he began looking for him.

I am not trying to argue here with your general theory about Harmonica's having been killed as a kid, you may well have other good proofs for that. I am just saying that the specific fact that Harmonica hasn't "made an appointment" with Frank till now doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother you  

[Dust Devil]

But wait a minute do they actually say more than one appointment, or does Frank just say "So you're the one that makes appointments" I think it may only be that one appointment. You wouldn't say in normal informal speech "so you're the one that makes an appointment"?

I think Frank says: ''So, you're the one who has been making appointments...''

Somebody check the DVD.

[Dust Devil]

No, you're right: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz1hmBNBDns

[cigar joe]

A couple fo more points, cj:

1. Why is Harmonica's gunshot hole visible in the trading post scene? I understand the theory that he is not affected by all the rules that most human are cuz of his "stdwd" qualities; hence (I believe) the hole is not seen after the trading post scene. However, why should it be visible in the trading post? Do you say that his stdwd qualities haven't taken effect yet in the trading post?

2. One of  the reasons you mentioned in support of your theories is that if Harmonica was never killed before this movie, then he would have tried to take revenge on Frank long ago, not wait till decades later, cuz you ay it wouldn't have been easy for Frank to have remained hidden in the American Southwest for all those years.
I am just wondering why this issue bothers you so much: Frank was presumably Morton's hitman for decades, traveling all across the country with his gang, "clearing the tracks" for Morton and his company. I am sure he did not have a listed number in the phone book. It wouldn't have been that easy for Harmonica to have found and killed him. (It is reasonable to say that perhaps Frank may have even been gone from Arizona for many decades, and has only returned now that the railroad is extending past Flagstone and his help is needed again). To be sure, Harmonica is also a drifter who has probably done his own traveling, and probably hasn't spent the last 30+ on a farm. But I do not think it would have necessarily been that easy for Harmonica to have found Frank as soon as he began looking for him.

I am not trying to argue here with your general theory about Harmonica's having been killed as a kid, you may well have other good proofs for that. I am just saying that the specific fact that Harmonica hasn't "made an appointment" with Frank till now doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother you 

1). Well to me, obviously, we are not dealing with the normal. To take your inquiry line of thought to its logical conclusion why wouldn't he heal immediately like say a "terminator". Or the bullets ricochet off him like Superman. For that matter why wouldn't the bullet just pass clean through him and not effect him?

Because the rules are different for this film as they are for any cinematic film, Harmonica has STDWD, he is like a demi-god of ancient mythology, he says it himself he is of an "Ancient" race. So part of him is obviously still human and that part is effected by bullets and the healing obviously isn't immediate.

2). Its possible, but implausible to me, and it does bother me because if you look at it that way it then greatly diminishes the inevitable STDWD "judgment day" quality of Harmonica and would highly inflate both his "human" and fallible qualities making him a more normal character, and it in turn then also highly inflates Frank as some kind of master "Moriarty" type criminal when in fact he's more of a brutal murdering thug.


PS. If you want something along the lines of the type of back story you are creating for Harmonica i.e.,

(Frank was presumably Morton's hitman for decades, traveling all across the country with his gang, "clearing the tracks" for Morton and his company. I am sure he did not have a listed number in the phone book. It wouldn't have been that easy for Harmonica to have found and killed him. (It is reasonable to say that perhaps Frank may have even been gone from Arizona for many decades, and has only returned now that the railroad is extending past Flagstone and his help is needed again). To be sure, Harmonica is also a drifter who has probably done his own traveling, and probably hasn't spent the last 30+ on a farm. But I do not think it would have necessarily been that easy for Harmonica to have found Frank as soon as he began looking for him.)

Rent Nevada Smith with Steve McQueen

[drinkanddestroy]

1). Well to me, obviously, we are not dealing with the normal. To take your inquiry line of thought to its logical conclusion why wouldn't he heal immediately like say a "terminator". Or the bullets ricochet off him like Superman. For that matter why wouldn't the bullet just pass clean through him and not effect him?

Because the rules are different for this film as they are for any cinematic film, Harmonica has STDWD, he is like a demi-god of ancient mythology, he says it himself he is of an "Ancient" race. So part of him is obviously still human and that part is effected by bullets and the healing obviously isn't immediate.

2). Its possible, but implausible to me, and it does bother me because if you look at it that way it then greatly diminishes the inevitable STDWD "judgment day" quality of Harmonica and would highly inflate both his "human" and fallible qualities making him a more normal character, and it in turn then also highly inflates Frank as some kind of master "Moriarty" type criminal when in fact he's more of a brutal murdering thug.


PS. If you want something along the lines of the type of back story you are creating for Harmonica i.e.,

(Frank was presumably Morton's hitman for decades, traveling all across the country with his gang, "clearing the tracks" for Morton and his company. I am sure he did not have a listed number in the phone book. It wouldn't have been that easy for Harmonica to have found and killed him. (It is reasonable to say that perhaps Frank may have even been gone from Arizona for many decades, and has only returned now that the railroad is extending past Flagstone and his help is needed again). To be sure, Harmonica is also a drifter who has probably done his own traveling, and probably hasn't spent the last 30+ on a farm. But I do not think it would have necessarily been that easy for Harmonica to have found Frank as soon as he began looking for him.)

Rent Nevada Smith with Steve McQueen

1. I agree that having stdwd is not all or nothing; they can be "semi-human" or whatever, possessing some but not all qualities that have stdwd. But whatever those qualities are, I think they should be clear and consistent, so as to allow for suspension of disbelief. Take eg. The Shining: we know the kid has the ability to see ghosts; and as the film progresses and the mom and dad stay cooped up in there for longer and longer, they start getting that ability too. But once you accept the basic premise that there is something supernatural involved, the "Shining" aka 'supernatural' parts of the film doesn't fool you or play tricks on you; it is pretty consistent.

On the other hand, if I buy your theories about Harmonica, then it seems to be that the film does not intend to give us much consistency or clarity about his status; it basically comes down to: he has whatever powers Donati and Leone decided he should have at that moment in the film. I have a hard time accepting that. And that makes it much more difficult for me to have the necessary suspension of disbelief for the 2 hours and 45 minutes.

If you disagree with me, let me ask you this: Can you please, clearly and to the best of your understanding, explain to me precisely which stdwd powers Harmonica has; and in which matters he is completely bound by laws of humans?

2. I tried renting Nevada Smith (based on your comments in a different post, btw!); but unfortunately the dvd's availability on Netflix is "Unknown," (Ie. Netflix does not have it!) So my only option is to buy the dvd. Is it worth purchasing? Ie. is it the kind of film that is both really good, and the type that I would be interested in watching multiple times?

Thanks 

[cigar joe]

If you disagree with me, let me ask you this: Can you please, clearly and to the best of your understanding, explain to me precisely which stdwd powers Harmonica has; and in which aspects he is completely bound by laws of humans?

I disagree, and NO its unknowable, deal with it.

Let me ask you this.... define "SOMETHING"?

or

tell me exactly what happens when you die?

As far as Nevada Smith its one long revenge tale, nothing supernatural, its only worth buying used from Amazon, it was the last American Western I saw before I saw my first Leone Western (FAFDM) and I though it was cool, little did I know.