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Author Topic: "Something to do with death"  (Read 55752 times)
Cusser
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« Reply #150 on: October 24, 2011, 07:47:31 AM »

I don't figure that Harmonica and Jill were on the same train going west (likely at most one westbound train a day, as that route didn't go through to California then.  Because if Harmonica got off at Cattle Corner, was shot (who knows how much time lapsed)...then how could he get to the outpost before Jill, who had traveled farther westward to Flagstone?  If cattle Corner was closer to the outpost than Flagstone, Jill would've gotten off there to get to McBain ranch. 

So I say different trains, and not same day for shooting and outpost.

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« Reply #151 on: October 24, 2011, 07:55:58 AM »

I never considered that possibility Cusser. There's nothing contextually to suggest they're on the same train, but it would make sense.

I think the implication is that Harmonica's "appointment" with Frank is the same day he's taking care of the McBains, and hence it would be the same day as Jill's arrival in Flagstone (unless she waited a whole day before giving up on Brett). Perhaps I'm mistaken?

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drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #152 on: October 24, 2011, 09:24:47 AM »

when Harmonica confronts Wobbles:


Wobbles: "... I only arranged the meeting the way you wanted it; I don't know why Frank wasn't there. I swear to you..."

Harmonica: "Cuz he was at the Mcbains' "

If you take Harmonica literally, then the massacre at the McBain ranch occurs at the same time as the massacre at Cattle Corner





« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 07:57:51 AM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #153 on: October 24, 2011, 09:37:17 AM »

That's the way I've always seen it. Afro

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« Reply #154 on: October 24, 2011, 09:41:55 AM »

From the Thirty Westerns in Once thread:

I noticed something for the 1rst time in this last complete viewing, the locomotive of the train at Cattle corner with Harmonica on board is the same that brings Jill to Flagstone.
Number 71.
BTW, Moton's locomotive is different.

Harmonica's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW-jSa9_k3M

Jill's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRs6CNV4T34

Of course this could be due to budget/convenience reasons but I thought it was worth pointing out. Afro

« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 09:44:28 AM by Groggy » Logged


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Just_a_man
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« Reply #155 on: May 02, 2016, 07:45:12 AM »

Cheyenne says Harmonica has ''something to do with death'' (inside him), to Jill, on the top of everything else written here, by us in favor of the more paranormal interpretation of the journey, tell me, why do you think that line is there in first place? Just another 'mistake'?

I've read that Leone was into psycho-analysis. If that's true, then it wouldn't be ludicrous to assume that Cheyenne's observation is his foreboding about the death-seeking nature of Harmonica's character. Cheyenne is not an educated man, he cannot articulate Harmonica's behavior through thoughts and words but he can achieve that goal through that which rugged, primitive men like him are sometimes endowed with - intuition. His animal side senses something strange about Harmonica and he acknowledges it but cannot fully explain it, hence 'something to do with death'.

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« Reply #156 on: May 02, 2016, 08:54:05 AM »

I think that being the same locomotive makes sense to me.  Track was sparse (the whole idea), Morton's train and railroad crew were west of Flagstone.  The commuter/supply train #71 would go west to Flagstone, turn around, go back to its east starting point.

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« Reply #157 on: May 02, 2016, 10:34:43 AM »

I've read that Leone was into psycho-analysis. If that's true, then it wouldn't be ludicrous to assume that Cheyenne's observation is his foreboding about the death-seeking nature of Harmonica's character. Cheyenne is not an educated man, he cannot articulate Harmonica's behavior through thoughts and words but he can achieve that goal through that which rugged, primitive men like him are sometimes endowed with - intuition. His animal side senses something strange about Harmonica and he acknowledges it but cannot fully explain it, hence 'something to do with death'.

The way I see it is that Leone left things just that little bit ambiguous for us in the same way he left OUATIA a little bit ambiguous for us. The fact of the matter is, Noodles most likely did not dream all of OUATIA and Harmonica most likely was just a mere mortal in OUATITW. However, it is that little seed of doubt that makes things just that little more intriguing and hence makes people talk about it and endlessly try to analyze it. One thing that is for sure is that Harmonica's "Rising Scene" should not have been present as it takes away most of that ambiguity. I still can't believe that the Blu-ray left that scene in rather than have it as an extra or at least make more use of the seamless branching on the disc to make it optional.

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« Reply #158 on: May 02, 2016, 04:33:12 PM »

One thing that is for sure is that Harmonica's "Rising Scene" should not have been present as it takes away most of that ambiguity.

That's not the reason why I don't like that scene. For the ghost stuff it changes nothing for me, as we later see that he was wounded, and ghosts don't get wounded, and they don't bleed. At least not the ones in Europe


What this scene does is that it destroys a bold narrative strategy.

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« Reply #159 on: May 02, 2016, 05:50:59 PM »

Cheyenne is not an educated man, he cannot articulate Harmonica's behavior through thoughts and words but he can achieve that goal through that which rugged, primitive men like him are sometimes endowed with - intuition. His animal side senses something strange about Harmonica and he acknowledges it but cannot fully explain it, hence 'something to do with death'.
I think it's important to remember who Cheyenne is speaking to when he makes his pronouncement. Jill is looking upon Harmonica with favor--he's one badass muthafucka--and Cheyenne is warning her off. Harmonica is a gunman. He deals in lead. He's been on a mission for years, the sole aim of which was to kill. That successfully concluded, what can there now be for him? Domestication? Certainly not. He must die or fade away. Cheyenne is telling Jill Harmonica is not for her. Death attends him. By contrast, Jill is the Aquarian figure who presides over Sweetwater and brings life sustaining fluid to the men passing by. The distinction is as stark as it can get.

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« Reply #160 on: May 02, 2016, 09:27:12 PM »

That's not the reason why I don't like that scene. For the ghost stuff it changes nothing for me, as we later see that he was wounded, and ghosts don't get wounded, and they don't bleed. At least not the ones in Europe


What this scene does is that it destroys a bold narrative strategy.


Actually what by far and away annoys me the most is that it ruins the transition between this scene and the McBain one following it.

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« Reply #161 on: May 03, 2016, 12:19:21 AM »

I think it's important to remember who Cheyenne is speaking to when he makes his pronouncement. Jill is looking upon Harmonica with favor--he's one badass muthafucka--and Cheyenne is warning her off. Harmonica is a gunman. He deals in lead. He's been on a mission for years, the sole aim of which was to kill. That successfully concluded, what can there now be for him? Domestication? Certainly not. He must die or fade away.

Of course, but it also serves the purpose of showing us how Cheyenne feels about Harmonica, how he views him. That opinion of his hasn't been formed through careful analysis of Harmonica's actions over the course of the movie. It was born the second he carelessly started playing his instrument at the trading post, thus demonstrating that he doesn't fall in line with the other sheep who tremble at the sight of Cheyenne, as well as that he has no fear of challenging anyone.

The fact that Harmonica left is why I adore Leone's westerns. Contrast it with likely outcome in an American western...they would fall in each other's arms and live happily ever after.

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« Reply #162 on: May 03, 2016, 12:25:02 AM »

One thing that is for sure is that Harmonica's "Rising Scene" should not have been present as it takes away most of that ambiguity. I still can't believe that the Blu-ray left that scene in rather than have it as an extra or at least make more use of the seamless branching on the disc to make it optional.

I believe that scene was meant to demonstrate that nobody is immortal. Leone destroyed a tiring cliche with that one. The windmill continuing it's rotation, producing that tedious sound, was something that I've always looked upon as "Another day, another death...the world keeps on turning." type of message to the viewer.

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« Reply #163 on: May 03, 2016, 01:37:24 AM »

Of course, but it also serves the purpose of showing us how Cheyenne feels about Harmonica, how he views him. That opinion of his hasn't been formed through careful analysis of Harmonica's actions over the course of the movie. It was born the second he carelessly started playing his instrument at the trading post, thus demonstrating that he doesn't fall in line with the other sheep who tremble at the sight of Cheyenne, as well as that he has no fear of challenging anyone.

The fact that Harmonica left is why I adore Leone's westerns. Contrast it with likely outcome in an American western...they would fall in each other's arms and live happily ever after.

You're not taking into consideration the character of Cheyenne 'lived' prior to the events of OUATITW: he did, and certainly long enough to spot one like Harmonica for what he is  at the very second he smells him around, as well as read Jill's thoughts. You don't have to study Phoenician philosophy to know that.

Personally, that  remark of his never bothered me, actually it gave even more depth to the character. The question that really should be asked is: does HE think he could settle down with Jill if she'd be willing to go for him?

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« Reply #164 on: May 03, 2016, 02:31:35 AM »

Actually what by far and away annoys me the most is that it ruins the transition between this scene and the McBain one following it.

Yes, that's another point why this short scene is bad. As I said somewhere before, it is as if in 2001 there is suddenly a short scene between the match cut from the bone to the spaceship. Annoying ...

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