The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene

[poderator]

Well, very often names in Sergio's movies have their simbolic meaning. Word MORT exist in the OUATIW too (Morton), and he also brings death. I guess thats why thiese movies are so appealing. You can't  find only one true meaning, you find many and they all can coexist without any problems. Film has many layers, and thats why we love them.

[Noodles_SlowStir]

I definitely agree with the sex-death idea.  Also as stated, the smoking of the jimson or herb afterward makes it quite obvious and explicit. The association between the sexual act and taking lives, death.   After the rape/suicide, Indio makes killing a ritual in which he definitely gets off.  His own little courtship with death.    I also felt that there was a bit something more to the experience for Indio that affected him emotionally and psychologically (even though  he's definitely a psychopath to begin with).  I considered that possibly it was the act of "rejection" by Mortimer's sister in taking her life while he forcibly takes her.  I decided that wouldn't of meant anything to him.  I think what shook Indio was that he becomes aware for maybe the first time of his own mortality or how close to death he had come.  More than any close calls from other robberies or being caught by the law and locked away with the possibility of execution, Mortimer's sister could of shot him and he wouldn't even of seen it coming.  I think this really unsettles this already quite disturbed person.  I'm not sure whether Indio and Mortimer would of crossed paths before.  I think that Mortimer would of been tracking Indio for sometime after he took care of his family matters.  Possibly Indio would of been aware of that.  When he hears Mortimer's name he would know what the deal was.  I agree that the Mortimer family name probably would of been known in those parts.  Mortimer was probably from a wealthy southern family and also was known for his service in the war.  The oral tradition was very important in the West in those days with so few newspapers.  Maybe Indio knew the connection between Mortimer and the victim/sister by his own crime resume.  It seems he got off by seeing and being known for his exploits.  He allows that one prison person to live so that he can relate his escape story back to the authorities.   Think about all those long detailed criminal acts read at Tuco's "executions" in GBU which were quite funny scenes.

[dave jenkins]

I definitely agree with the sex-death idea.  Also as stated, the smoking of the jimson or herb afterward makes it quite obvious and explicit. The association between the sexual act and taking lives, death.   After the rape/suicide, Indio makes killing a ritual in which he definitely gets off.  His own little courtship with death.    I also felt that there was a bit something more to the experience for Indio that affected him emotionally and psychologically (even though  he's definitely a psychopath to begin with). 

Since you agree with me I can only say, Right on! I think you're all right, Noodles_SlowStir, I don't care WHAT marmota-b says about you......

[Noodles_SlowStir]

Since you agree with me I can only say, Right on! I think you're all right, Noodles_SlowStir, I don't care WHAT marmota-b says about you......

       (usmev)

[drinkanddestroy]

I think you've got this nailed, except that the flashbacks are intended to provide sympathy (or at least, understanding) for Indio. For him, the death of Mortimer's sister was not a horrible experience, it was his initiation into liebestod, or "death-love." Hence, the highly aestheticized nature of the flashbacks: Indio's treasured memories.

I think Indio is haunted by the memory of the suicide.

Not that he has a conscience and feels bad about what he did; he is a psychopath. But the fact that he had, as Frayling says, "a sexual act interrupted" by suicide IMO has had a very traumatic effect on him. I don't think he treasures the memory in any way; to the contrary, I think he is haunted by it.

[Big Boss 1971]

FoD , FAF$M & GBU......hardcore by Norways standard and were banned , hell GBU did not premiere there until '82 ! (on VHS I bet)

[Smokey]

Anybody ever wonder why she didn't just shoot Indio instead of herself? I guess the movie would have been over.

[drinkanddestroy]

Anybody ever wonder why she didn't just shoot Indio instead of herself? I guess the movie would have been over.

the point is she didn't want to live after being raped and having seen her boyfriend/husband killed in front of her. Even if she would have killed Indio first (in which case the movie would have been over), she still would have killed herself. She was so distraught and wanted to end her life; when someone is in a state of utter despair, they aren't thinking about revenge. They just wanna be done with it all.

[stanton]

Normally Drink would call this ridiculous and unbelievable. I wonder that you defend such a silly plot device here.

Actually I never thought about that being unrealistic, even if it obviously is. We often buy things in films by accepting what we see on the screen without questioning it.

[drinkanddestroy]

Normally Drink would call this ridiculous and unbelievable. I wonder that you defend such a silly plot device here.

Actually I never thought about that being unrealistic, even if it obviously is. We often buy things in films by accepting what we see on the screen without questioning it.

You really think I want every movie to be like the Italian neo-realism  

Anyway, I don't think it's unrealistic for a woman who just saw her man killed and is now raped to not want to live anymore. (perhaps even more so 175 years ago, or so, when the movie takes place, when there probably was  a real stigma about a woman who was raped; as traumatizing as it is to any woman of any era, back then it probably would have been much more difficult for a woman who has been raped to ever get married again... but anyway, at this moment she's not thinking about that. All she knows is that) she's distraught and wants to die, period. when someone is so distraught as to want to die immediately, I don't know if they stop and say, "let me get revenge first." they want it to be over with and that's all. Moreover, for some decent people, it's not easy to kill another person - even someone as evil, and who inflicted as much harm, as Indio. There are plenty of people who could absolutely never bring themselves to pull the trigger on another human being, no matter how evil he is. they may be so traumatized they wanna die instantly but can't bring themselves to kill someone else, or simply don't think about anything in that moment other than ending their own life.


IMO, not only does this not cross the line of being within a normal cinematic suspension of disbelief, but I don't think there is ANYTHING non-believable about it. Sure, many women in that situation would have killed Indio; but I think many would have done what this girl did. (And RE: Smokey's original question: it's not a choice between killing Indio OR committing suicide. If she is so distraught that she wants to commit suicide, killing Indio isn't gonna change that. She'd have killed herself regardless of whether or not she killed Indio first. So IMO maybe it's legitimate to ask why she didn't kill Indio first, but not why she didn't kill Indio instead.)

p.s. RE: the rape: I still maintain that I have seen zero evidence to support Frayling's contention that there as an implication that Indio is impotent since this sex act was interrupted by the girl's suicide.

[stanton]

1. I'm not a woman, but I assume that most women would at first try to kill the rapist if they suddenly got a weapon in their hands. The shame can only come after the rape.

2. Killing someone who attacks one is self defense and can't be compared with any other killing. You don't think much about moral issues if someone attacks you.

3. And I don't think that most women would like to kill themselves after a rape. Some yes, but most not. Especially not those who were educated with the belief of suicide being a deadly sin.

4. Frayling probably meant that Indio was traumatised by the suicide and became impotent because of that.

[drinkanddestroy]

1. I'm not a woman, but I assume that most women would at first try to kill the rapist if they suddenly got a weapon in their hands. The shame can only come after the rape.

2. Killing someone who attacks one is self defense and can't be compared with any other killing. You don't think much about moral issues if someone attacks you.

3. And I don't think that most women would like to kill themselves after a rape. Some yes, but most not. Especially not those who were educated with the belief of suicide being a deadly sin.

4. Frayling probably meant that Indio was traumatised by the suicide and became impotent because of that.

RE: #3: It's not a question of whether or not YOU would wanna die if you were in that girls' situation, or even what you think MOST women would do. It's just a question of whether it's believable that this girl would. And you yourself just said you believe that most wouldn't but some would. Well, as long as some would, then the scene is plausible, and no suspension of disbelief whatsoever is required.
The only way this scene doesn't work is if you say that it is completely unrealistic that a woman would wanna kill herself in that situation.
 (and I don't know how religious Indio's sister was and whether she was bothered morally by suicide. It doesn't matter; in the spur of the moment - when in the matter of a few minutes she has witnessed a murder of her man and experienced rape, I can certainly believe she'd wanna die, even if she believed she was going to hell for it.)

RE: 1 & 2 - I wasn't saying that it would be wrong for her to kill Indio - to the contrary, a woman who can kill her rapist absolutely SHOULD do so. And I think that most women in that situation WOULD kill Indio first - even if she knows she is gonna kill herself a second later.
 I'm just saying that it's plausible - for two possible reasons -  that she'd kill herself without first killing Indio: one reason (less likely) is that there are some people that can't bring themselves to kill another human being, period (even though they could bring themselves to commit suicide out of despair). The more likely reason is that she is so distraught that she just wants to die and be over with it  and she 's just thinking of ending her life and nothing else.


IMO, Bottom line is that it is plausible that a woman in that situation would want to die immediately. So the scene works - not just cinematically, but totally realistically as well.

RE: #4, yes, that's what Frayling was saying, that there's an implication that the trauma of the suicide during the rape has rendered Indio impotent. I don't see the slightest bit of evidence to that. (Maybe there was some such implication in the  deleted scene of Indio's gang partying with whores?)

[stanton]

As there is no scene showing Indio's impotence it is a far fetched assumption.

For the rape scene, I still think from a realistic point of view it is very implausible, but at first FAFDM is like all Leone westerns not a realistic film, and then it is an artist's right to condense events, even if then there are implausible things or extreme coincidences.

[Huey]

Hey, Indio knew who his victim was and who her brother was. Mortimer was his nemesis. He had known his fate a long, long time.

A complete madman, but no idiot.

[drinkanddestroy]

Hey, Indio knew who his victim was and who her brother was. Mortimer was his nemesis. He had known his fate a long, long time.

A complete madman, but no idiot.

I don't think Indio knew who Mortimer was until he said his name. When he sees Mortimer at Agua Caleinte, he knows he is a bounty killer, but he does not know it's the brother of the girl he raped; I think he only realizes it when Mortimer shouts, "This is Colonel Mortimer.... Douglas Mortimer.... does the name mean anything to you?"