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Author Topic: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene  (Read 13568 times)
tokyorose
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« on: February 26, 2007, 08:49:51 PM »

I'm about to be very pedantic and annoying here, so just skip on if you'd like.

SPOILER ALERT!!!





In the final flashback when Indio groggily reminisces about his attack on the young couple and in particular, the rape of the female victim, the scene is so squeaky-clean that one wonders why the critics were making so much noise about Leone's films being ultra violent.  It would take the average woman several hours at the salon to look as good as this lady does in the wake of a vicious assault.  Her make-up is flawless and she hasn't a hair out of place.  And as for the fatal point-blank gunshot wound she inflicts on herself,  there is just one neat little bloodless hole in her side, and she dies instantaneously instead of bleeding to death, which is usually the cause of death by gunshot.  The whole thing seemed as though we had suddenly shifted gears from a spaghetti western to a Bonanza episode. 

Perhaps we're meant to believe that this is Indio's wierdly romanticized version of the actual event (and he does romanticize over the incident in a very wierd way) but I find that this presentation trivializes the horror of the woman's rape/suicide.  I think I'd feel much more antipathy for Indio and sympathy for Mortimer if there had been just a little more gritty realism.

But just a little more.  Hell, I thought Scooby Do was scary!

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Faisalha9159
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2007, 01:56:58 PM »

I think if the rape scene had been anymore "real" then maybe it would have been censored anyway. Also a lot of the shootings etc were squeaky clean as well. Just a small example is the shooting at the beginning where Col. Mortimer in a very professional manner executes his first bounty kill- you can`t get much cleaner than that. There are many more examples of this type of thing, but I guess that`s what movies are all about.

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Kurug3n
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2007, 03:50:18 PM »

Also a lot of the shootings etc were squeaky clean as well. Just a small example is the shooting at the beginning where Col. Mortimer in a very professional manner executes his first bounty kill- you can`t get much cleaner than that.

Clean?? what do you mean by this?

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The Peacemaker
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2007, 03:53:01 PM »

Clean?? what do you mean by this?

Lack of blood, no suffering, etc.

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tokyorose
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2007, 04:07:21 PM »

Yeah...funny I should be complaining about this when I can't stand gore-fest movies at all...

That perfect hair and make-up was pretty surreal, though.

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dave jenkins
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2007, 08:35:15 AM »



Perhaps we're meant to believe that this is Indio's wierdly romanticized version of the actual event (and he does romanticize over the incident in a very wierd way) but I find that this presentation trivializes the horror of the woman's rape/suicide.  I think I'd feel much more antipathy for Indio and sympathy for Mortimer if there had been just a little more gritty realism.
I think you've got this nailed, except that the flashbacks are intended to provide sympathy (or at least, understanding) for Indio. For him, the death of Mortimer's sister was not a horrible experience, it was his initiation into liebestod, or "death-love." Hence, the highly aestheticized nature of the flashbacks: Indio's treasured memories.

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Kurug3n
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2007, 07:19:16 PM »

Lack of blood, no suffering, etc.

yeah nowadays but that bullet hole in his head was pretty extreme back then or so i've read

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The Peacemaker
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2007, 01:45:31 PM »

yeah nowadays but that bullet hole in his head was pretty extreme back then or so i've read

Oh yeah, back then it was a huge thing.

The movie came out in America in 1967, before Peckinpah's blood baths, so audiences were not use to seeing that kind of harsh violence. At this time, American westerns were still showing people getting shot, squint their eyes, and fall down softly to show the effect of a bullet.   Roll Eyes

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Tim
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2007, 10:43:52 PM »

Quote
At this time, American westerns were still showing people getting shot, squint their eyes, and fall down softly to show the effect of a bullet.

  I watched The Magnificent Seven recently and noticed something like this, peace.  While its obviously not to the extremes of say Bonnie and Clyde or The Wild Bunch, Mag7 does have some blood, especially in the final gun battle.  Looks to be a tiny squib on Bernardo when he gets shot, some of the bandits have blood soak through their clothes, and Britt has the same when he gets picked off.

  Like I said, it's not as graphic as the others, but for 1960 it's not too bad when you compare it to the other westerns in the same span.

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The Peacemaker
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2007, 02:56:51 PM »

  I watched The Magnificent Seven recently and noticed something like this, peace.  While its obviously not to the extremes of say Bonnie and Clyde or The Wild Bunch, Mag7 does have some blood, especially in the final gun battle.  Looks to be a tiny squib on Bernardo when he gets shot, some of the bandits have blood soak through their clothes, and Britt has the same when he gets picked off.

  Like I said, it's not as graphic as the others, but for 1960 it's not too bad when you compare it to the other westerns in the same span.

I didn't mean use of blood, I meant use of bullet effect.

In the American westerns you never saw the person shot spin and around or fly backwards, except in Shane.

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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2007, 04:13:59 AM »

I think you've got this nailed, except that the flashbacks are intended to provide sympathy (or at least, understanding) for Indio. For him, the death of Mortimer's sister was not a horrible experience, it was his initiation into liebestod, or "death-love." Hence, the highly aestheticized nature of the flashbacks: Indio's treasured memories.
I agree with almost everything you said, but I strongly disagree that death of Mortimer's sister was not a horrible expirience for Indio. If that's true then why all that guilty look on his face?
Indio killed women and child that belong to his former gunmen. Not by his hand literary but still that's his deed. He tried to murder col. Mortimer by cheating. Indio has guilty conscious, there is no doubt about it.
Whenever he saw that watch he become tatally obsesed. Hell, he manage to make this watch the central hub of his existence. He can't do anything without that watch, not even kill a man. Indio's memories are attached to his watch, and picture of Mortimer's sister is inside. So it was a horrible expirience for him. Truth is, we dont't know for sure what Indio's relationship with that woman really mean. I think they shared past long before that flashback scene even occur. If not then why would Indio be so emotionaly attached to his/her watch, and that particulary memory? It would be just one rape and murder more on his list. We see that he doesn't have a problem when it comes to kill people in general. He has a problem with that one particular murder. Indio cried in that last showdown. He certainly didn't cry because he was afraid of col. Mortimer. His confidence is crushed because mortimer's name reminded him on that very moment, and all his emotional trauma that Sergio built trough the entire film reached the climax in the showdown, with Indio's tears. Indio isn't afraid of the person. He is afraid and haunted by his own mind, and his own thoughts.
Another thing; col. Mortimer said his name to Indio at the and of the movie. That means they knew each other before. Maybe they had some unfinished bussines, and that's why Indio killed his sister. Oposite is impossible, because Indio killed the guy and Sister killed herself. No evidents, no one was left alive to tell Mortimer that Indio killed her. It must be this first. Or Not Roll Eyes

« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 04:19:37 AM by poderator » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2007, 01:00:11 PM »

Correct - Indio recognized Mortimer's name, then put on the gunbelt to face him.  Mortimer stated his name because he knew (for not-explained reason) that Indio would recognize it, and would confront him.  So one can surmise that Indio knew Mortimer's sister before she was married (still a Mortimer). 

« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 01:02:50 PM by Cusser » Logged
dave jenkins
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2007, 06:18:23 PM »

I agree with almost everything you said, but I strongly disagree that death of Mortimer's sister was not a horrible expirience for Indio. If that's true then why all that guilty look on his face?
Indio killed women and child that belong to his former gunmen. Not by his hand literary but still that's his deed. He tried to murder col. Mortimer by cheating. Indio has guilty conscious, there is no doubt about it.
Whenever he saw that watch he become tatally obsesed. Hell, he manage to make this watch the central hub of his existence. He can't do anything without that watch, not even kill a man. Indio's memories are attached to his watch, and picture of Mortimer's sister is inside. So it was a horrible expirience for him. Truth is, we dont't know for sure what Indio's relationship with that woman really mean. I think they shared past long before that flashback scene even occur. If not then why would Indio be so emotionaly attached to his/her watch, and that particulary memory? It would be just one rape and murder more on his list. We see that he doesn't have a problem when it comes to kill people in general. He has a problem with that one particular murder. Indio cried in that last showdown. He certainly didn't cry because he was afraid of col. Mortimer. His confidence is crushed because mortimer's name reminded him on that very moment, and all his emotional trauma that Sergio built trough the entire film reached the climax in the showdown, with Indio's tears. Indio isn't afraid of the person. He is afraid and haunted by his own mind, and his own thoughts.
Well, we just see these things differently. I think Indio becomes fascinated by death when Mortimer's sister kills herself rather than submit to rape. It gets him thinking. Before, killing others meant nothing to him; afterwards he gets off watching people die (hence the need for Jimson weed afterwards, for a kind of post-coital wind down). Sex and killing are mixed up in his mind. And he knows that someday he's gonna have his ultimate moment of climax as well. When he hears Mortimer's name at the end, he knows that day has arrived. Those tears are tears of joy.

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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2007, 01:04:42 AM »

My point is: Mortimer throw his name in front of Indio.  It suppose to mean something to Indio, to provoke his reaction. And reaction came instantly. No one knows that Indio killed those two, but still Mortimer knows who killed his sister. OK, maybe he find out somehow, but how come Indio knows who Mortimer is? We don't know if that event from the flashback was Indio's first murder. He sure looks pretty calm to me. Indio is fascinated there is no doubt about that. But Indio and Mortimer shared their past long before those flashback events even occur. That's my opinion.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 01:36:19 AM by poderator » Logged
dave jenkins
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2007, 07:35:41 AM »

Maybe. But the Mortimer family is a well-known Carolina family, so it would be hard for Indio not to know who he tried to rape, either before or after the event. In fact, on my theory, he would have been so interested in the mysterious girl who left his embrace in order to jump into the arms of death that he would have tried to find out all he could about her. The name Mortimer (and of course the word mort is in there) then would become totemic, something he not only recognizes instantly, but that fills him with awe, dread and reverence.

Of course, Mortimer's sister is also Angel Eyes' sister; maybe Indio and AE pulled a few jobs together and Indio learned about the sister through Mortimer's evil twin..... Grin

(Here's another wrinkle: Mortimer essentially executes sentence on Indio for his crimes, and thus can be called "Sentenza").

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