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Goldman
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« on: September 16, 2003, 06:36:38 AM »

Hi all,

I am writing an article and wondering if anyone can tell me where the critic Jean Baudrillard called OAATITW 'the first post-modern film' or something along those lines?  I have read two newspaper articles that say he said this but I can't find the actual source.  Any guidance would be appreciated.

Thanks.

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shorty larsen
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2003, 02:21:02 PM »

Very hard to finf.

There are many references of it in google but the actual source remains almost impossible to find.

Baudrillard is a huge french thinker in sociology.

It would be extremely interesting to read what he wrote about Leone.

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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2003, 05:42:48 AM »

I don't know where and when he said it but it is obvious that OUATIW would appeal to him, as would OUATIA.

Why? In my opinion because they deal with surface and pastische, the characters are more reflections and "ghosts" in these mirror-movies of icons and myths and fairytales,  than they are characters in their own right. The only connection they have with reality is one based on myth and hundreds of other movies.

Baudrillard was always fascinated with "America" - the "place" of his postmodern theories come true, one big Disneyland only consisting of "surface" (I hope I'm not offending anybody here..)  - It is both a liberating idea to him but also a jungle of "anything goes" where any ideas of "value" and "morality" are lost.

He speaks of "sign-value" instead of older sociological and cultural concepts of "commodity value" for instance.
The sign in itself is value, not what it represents. This is probably why he speaks of OUATIW like he does. It messes with the structural concepts of "signifier" and "signifiant".

OUATIW is a meta-movie, an intertextual "surface-ride". Extremely focused on making imagery and emotional perception instead of direct points. It is also Italian, as Frayling points out, and they made movies about the myth about the myth... Baudrillard would say that one can do nothing else. Representation "is it", there is nothing more.

Well, he was a hardcore postmodernist, and sometimes he would exaggerate to make a point of contemporary tendencies. Like do all armchair-"thinkers". It's been a while since I read his books, but I seem to remember he's great fun from time to time - one never quite knows if he celebrates postmodernism or is appaled by it, in an Adorno kind of way.

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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2003, 02:12:39 PM »

Blueberry: great luck to have you on this board. The discussion level is extremely high thanks to people like you.

Yesterday, watching Matrix I, for the x time, I've noticed, for the first time, that the book where Neo hides his ilegal software is..... "Simulacra and Simulation" by Jean Baudrillard.

I checked this information on IMDB. According to IMDB, Morpheus "paraphrases" Simulacra and Simulation several times.

It seems logical to me, this relationship between the directors from Matrix and Baudrillard.

I think that, from the point of view of the Wachouski brothers, the capitalist/liberalist/industrialized world is, in fact, a matrix, a mask which don't let us see the real world, made of simplicity.

Now that "communism" is dead, and "capitalism" has won. One of the many messages of Matrix (and Baudrillard) is "beware, capitalism is not the real world, it's a Matrix", a Matrix made of masks and simulations as Baudrillard told us.

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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2006, 04:02:42 PM »

Well, capitalism is the real world. For the time being.

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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2006, 11:03:55 AM »


OUATIW is a meta-movie, an intertextual "surface-ride". Extremely focused on making imagery and emotional perception instead of direct points. It is also Italian, as Frayling points out, and they made movies about the myth about the myth...
True, but it would be a mistake to think that this is all it is. One can watch the film without getting all or any of the references. You don't even have to have seen a Western before to appreciate the story. This is the great thing about Leone: even at his most abstract, he remains a popular entertainer and story-teller whom anyone can enjoy.

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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2006, 11:21:38 AM »

Well, I don't know so much about Baudrillard, but "postmodernism" is a word that can be used for many things... According to Umberto Eco, a postmodern work of art is a work of art which uses other work of art to express something. It's quite complex to explain in english, but i'll try by using the same example as Eco does:
A man, in love with a woman who has read a lot, cannot tell her "i love you desesperatly" because she would know that X (i don't remember who) already wrote it in a book. This is why the man can say:
"As X would say, I love you desesperatly". This way, the idea (he loves here desesperatly) is expressed, and the woman knows that the man didn't "steal" the words to X, he only borrows it AND giving a tribute to X.

So, we could argue that it is the same with OUATITW: characters, situations, quotes are from other movies, so the ideas/emotions are expressed, and people who have seen plenty of westerns won't scream that Leone is a robber (on the contrary, they will be happy to recognize tributes and quotes, wherease they would (and they did:) ) have criticised him if they would have had the feeling that he was robbing), and people who haven't seen any of these movies will only enjoy OUATITW.

Am I clear? Undecided Undecided Undecided

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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2006, 11:23:49 AM »

Which explains the point of Dave Jenkins... only if sby is able to understand a single word of what I wrote Grin

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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2006, 01:22:55 PM »

Well, I don't know so much about Baudrillard, but "postmodernism" is a word that can be used for many things... According to Umberto Eco, a postmodern work of art is a work of art which uses other work of art to express something. It's quite complex to explain in english, but i'll try by using the same example as Eco does:
A man, in love with a woman who has read a lot, cannot tell her "i love you desesperatly" because she would know that X (i don't remember who) already wrote it in a book. This is why the man can say:
"As X would say, I love you desesperatly". This way, the idea (he loves here desesperatly) is expressed, and the woman knows that the man didn't "steal" the words to X, he only borrows it AND giving a tribute to X.

So, we could argue that it is the same with OUATITW: characters, situations, quotes are from other movies, so the ideas/emotions are expressed, and people who have seen plenty of westerns won't scream that Leone is a robber (on the contrary, they will be happy to recognize tributes and quotes, wherease they would (and they did:) ) have criticised him if they would have had the feeling that he was robbing), and people who haven't seen any of these movies will only enjoy OUATITW.

Am I clear? Undecided Undecided Undecided

Very well put. Couldn't have said it better myself.  Smiley

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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2006, 08:17:02 AM »

Thanks:)

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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2006, 03:24:24 AM »

I also have been searching for some time for Baudrillards original quote. The only thing I ever found was in a book by him when he is talking about movies as big mechanisms of synthesis and there he asks the question: "Is this also in the movies of Leone? Maybe." The book is in german and its titel is "Kool Killer oder: Der Aufstand der Zeichen." The problem is that everybody else (De Fornari, Frayling etc.) always quote Baudrillard but never name the origin of the citation.

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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2006, 07:58:12 AM »

The primary indicator of spurious citation!

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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2006, 12:09:41 PM »

Sadly, it seems as if it is indeed an example of incorrect citation...

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