The Hoods

[Harry Goldberg]

The book has 49 chapters and is dedicated to Grey's true & loyal mob
M., B., H. & S.

It starts in an East Side school classroom (7th grade) with:

Cockeye (a bit simple/dumb - harmonica player)
Max (tall muscular & a wise guy - reading a cowboy/western paperback)
Noodles (clever & imaginative)
Patsy (tough looking)
Dominick (podgy & small - high pitched voice)

Noodles and Max imagine what it would be like if the five of them
formed a gang like Jesse James but without horses.

Max says "We'll make a million bucks sticking up banks and then quit."
Dominick asks "a million for the five of us, Max?".
Max says "Nah a million apiece".
Patsy asks "We gonna quit when we get a million?"
Max: "Yep, we'll quit and move up to the Bronx and be big shots."

Noodles gets summoned to the Principal's office (Max offers to throw
the Principal out of the window if Noodles wants). Noodles's father has
been out of work for 3 months and Noodles wants to leave school and
start a job. The principal recognises Noodles's potential and wants him
to stay on at school.

"I think, with proper guidance, you can still develop into a good and
successful citizen. I'll have a social agency look into your case and
help your family, so that you can continue your schooling. Keep away
from bad companions ... Why not continue and try to be a bookkeeper,
possibly an accountant? Don't just go floundering through life without
a definite goal. Specialized knowledge is like a sharp knife. It will
help you cut your way through the entanglements of life to your goal.
To success. You understand what I what I mean?"

Yeh, I knew what he meant, but I played dumb. "Yeh, I'll get myself a
big knife" I said.

The dialogue and descriptions of events are a bit lengthy but reading
the book and the screenplay will clear up many of the questions that
viewers of the film may have.

Summary of chapters

01 - End Of School, Max Patsy Cockeye Dominick modern Jesse James
       Schwartz Candy Store, helping Monk, Jake Pipy Goo-Goo, Knife
       Peggy & Fanny, Momma, poverty, Max's uncle, Fat Moe, Federal
       Reserve Bank, Dolores, The Professor, Mott Street
02 - Book - Boswell's Life of Johnson
03 - Peggy & Whitey - police bribery
04 - Rolling a drunk
05 - Laundry delivery job - strike breaking
06 - Drugstore heist, death of Dominick
07 - Sent to Jewish home, Cedar Knolls for 18 months
       Maxi's uncle dies, Max takes over uncle's funeral business
08 - Taking contracts, forming coalition with Frank, 6 speakeasies
       Noodles Bookkeeper, Opium
09 - Dream of the formation of the criminal combination
10 - Turkish Baths
11 - Diamond Heist, Betty
12 - Writing a book, Sex
13 - Nutch and the diamond switch
14 - Oscar the fence, disposing of Nutch's body, John Doe,
       Federal Reserve Bank
15 - Cleaning up Peggy's whorehouse
16 - The accidental death of Andrew Moore, Himmelfarb brothers
17 - A licence to print money
18 - Noodles father previously a horse thief & smuggler, money
       printing machine switched, Broome St speakeasy to Jake & Co
19 - My disastrous date with Dolores
20 - Feeling Sorry for myself
21 - Helen the singer, picking up a prostitute, Frank & Dandy Phil
22 - Nude swimming
23 - Getting kitted out
24 - Checking out the casino (1)
25 - Checking out the casino (2), momma, brother
26 - Casino shakedown (1)
27 - Casino shakedown (2)
28 - Casino shakedown (3), 20 bullets in 3 secs
29 - Phil & Fanny
30 - Eden, Fairy Theodore, Eve
31 - Big Mike, Fitz & Jimmy at the Eden
32 - Salvy the Snake, Willie the Ape, Mr Crowning
33 - Impersonating cops, Thespus Detective Agency
34 - The seduction of Eve, rubber falsies
35 - Thespus Detective Agency (1), knockout drops
36 - Thespus Detective Agency (2)
37 - Chicago hit, Eve, taking over the Eden
38 - Our arrest, murder of Salvy, Willie & a stranger
39 - Our release, planning the next job
40 - Disposal of the body of a Supreme Court Judge
41 - Dancing with Betty, John Doe, argument with Max re payroll
       heist, split
42 - 2 weeks vacation in Miami with Eve, Max now with Betty,
       Combination goods hijacked, Herring's doublecross
43 - Max wanting to pickle Herring
44 - Max becoming a megalomaniac, throne, casing the Federal
       Reserve Bank
45 - Trying to contact Frank, withdrawing bank savings
46 - Momma in a coma in hospital, gave details of Max & Co's
       next job to prohibition agents, momma died, booze, opium
       death of Max, Patsy & Cockeye, searching for our cash
47 - Mendy Muscles & Trigger Mike take me to warehouse for
       execution, trick them to take me to Moe's, knockout drops
48 - Escape to Joeys in chinatown, opium
49 - Leave town

Oh, i forgot, another clue i noticed reading your comment on we can reasoning to find out who real Noodles was is the dedication "to Grey's true & loyal mob
M., B., H. & S."; we could, with the passing of time, create everyone his own hypothesis starting from the initial letters of the name of his mob pals, referring to actually existed jewish mobsters in New York during the Prohibition-era-

Goodbye!

[drinkanddestroy]

It doesn't seem like Noodles/Harry Grey/Goldberg was any sort of major gangster. Not the kind of guy that would have his own chapter in any book about gangsters (except his own). When Leone met Goldberg, hejust thought he was some loser who at one point i his life, tried his luck with a Tommy and a Borsalino (to paraphrase a line from Frayling's book). So I don't think you'll find out much about Goldberg from searching gangster history.

To me, it seems like the best option is what ONCE did, looking through US Census records. He did find some people with that name (not surprising; "Harry Goldberg" does sound like a rather common Jewish name), don't know if it's the right guy. The one clue about his family that he mentions in the book is that his father was named Srulick (that's a Yiddish nickname, for what is probably the Hebrew name Yisroel, and in English would be Israel).

[Harry Goldberg]

It doesn't seem like Noodles/Harry Grey/Goldberg was any sort of major gangster. Not the kind of guy that would have his own chapter in any book about gangsters (except his own). When Leone met Goldberg, hejust thought he was some loser who at one point i his life, tried his luck with a Tommy and a Borsalino (to paraphrase a line from Frayling's book). So I don't think you'll find out much about Goldberg from searching gangster history.

To me, it seems like the best option is what ONCE did, looking through US Census records. He did find some people with that name (not surprising; "Harry Goldberg" does sound like a rather common Jewish name), don't know if it's the right guy. The one clue about his family that he mentions in the book is that his father was named Srulick (that's a Yiddish nickname, for what is probably the Hebrew name Yisroel, and in English would be Israel).

Yes, i confirm it, Srulick it's the English transliteration of Israel name.
Anyway, i didn't know that Leone had this impression about him (a loser who attempted success at one point of his life with a Tommy and a Borsalino); where did you read this?

Anyway, i disagree with you partially, and i tell you why: if Noodles hasn't lied (but it's probably he has) and, with his gang, he was associated with highest mobster in that era (Costello, Capone, Luciano, etc., as he mentions in the book) he absolutely WAS a major high-profile mobster, otherwise he's never could been associated (and neither know personally, premising he was saying the truth)with that MASTERS, no?

One of these two things: or he changed completely he and his gang's name, and he's really existed as a major mobster, and we can even (or we did) read about him largely of him without know that mobster is him, or he has only boasted of a life he's never lived.

Anyway, man, you seem well-documented, do you know some other interesting clue which could help us in this research?

Thanks (excuse for my poor english)

[chris]

Hi Harry.

Welcome to the board and hope your research goes well.

I have no doubts that Harry Grey/Goldberg was a small-time hood who had speakeasies and did jobs on his own account and for Frank Costello and the mob.  Events similar to most of those described in the book will have happened in real life but it is likely that Grey's involvement has been exaggerated.

Some facts about Harry Grey/Goldberg which may have not been mentioned here:

Shortly before filming started in June 1982, Sergio Leone tried to contact Harry Grey/Goldberg. He was told that he had died a few weeks earlier.  So the date of death of Harry Grey/Goldberg was approx. Feb/Mar 1982.  Death certificates and records would then show Goldberg's approximate date of birth.

All Sergio Leone's meetings with Harry Grey/Goldberg were in the New York/Brooklyn/Queens areas.

If Goldberg's father was named Israel and died in 1916 that would help with census and death records.

Harry Grey/Goldberg wrote the book whilst he was in Sing Sing.


Ron Arons is a Jew living in New York whose grandfather did time in Sing Sing.  He has spent many years researching Jews who did time there and has visited Sing Sing as a researcher.  He has written books including The Jews of Sing-Sing and does talks on researching criminal ancestors.  His contact details and a free on-line searchable database of the inmates of Sing Sing is at his web site:

www.ronarons.com
 

[drinkanddestroy]

Yes, i confirm it, Srulick it's the English transliteration of Israel name.
Anyway, i didn't know that Leone had this impression about him (a loser who attempted success at one point of his life with a Tommy and a Borsalino); where did you read this?

Anyway, i disagree with you partially, and i tell you why: if Noodles hasn't lied (but it's probably he has) and, with his gang, he was associated with highest mobster in that era (Costello, Capone, Luciano, etc., as he mentions in the book) he absolutely WAS a major high-profile mobster, otherwise he's never could been associated (and neither know personally, premising he was saying the truth)with that MASTERS, no?

One of these two things: or he changed completely he and his gang's name, and he's really existed as a major mobster, and we can even (or we did) read about him largely of him without know that mobster is him, or he has only boasted of a life he's never lived.

Anyway, man, you seem well-documented, do you know some other interesting clue which could help us in this research?

Thanks (excuse for my poor english)

Read Christopher Frayling's biography on Leone called "Something To Do With Death," specifically the chapter on Once Upon a Time in America. That's pretty much where I got all my info.

Besides, if you read The Hoods you can tell instantly that half the stuff in there is bullshit. The stories are fantasy. About the other half, who knows.

Here is a blog some guy keeps about Jewish gangsters http://sixforfive.blogspot.com/ Don't think you'll find any info on Goldberg there.

Who knows if his real name, back in the days he was a gangster, was Harry Goldberg anyway

[Cusser]

Harry - welcome to the board.  Many of us in the U.S. are a conglomeration of nationalities, likely one of the strengths of the U.S. 

I read somewhere - probably here or in one of the books - that Leone turned down the Godfather job because he was more intrigued by the legacy of jewish gangsters.  Most stereotype jewish folks as accountants, lawyers, etc. who can't do auto repairs, fix-ups, construction, manufacturing, etc., but that's just a msterotype.  Guess who does this stuff in the country of Israel?  Even in sports: look at the early history of the NBA, remember Sandy Koufax (I saw him play), Hank Greenberg?  Nowadays, such stuff doesn't even make the news.  But Leone wanted to show that side of the culture.

Now there's a black President, and looks like he'll be running against a Mormon.  When Kennedy was running, there was discrimination against a catholic candidate; even Humphrey in the primaries had a campaign song "Give me that old time religion", subtlely (or not so subtle) reminder that Kennedy had a different religion.  Race relations in the US, the first real mixed-race country have improved dramatically in the past 50 years, but it just doesn't happen overnight.  As folks work with, play on sports teams with and against others, the barriers break, but not overnight.

Years ago, I had a girlfriend Debbie who was Italian-Mexican, and catholic.  Her parents were split up so she called herself  Mexican, but she was the same as everybody else.  Being half-Mexican and/or catholic didn't make any difference, and was NOT a factor, plus or minus: she was Debbie !!!

[drinkanddestroy]

Harry - welcome to the board.  Many of us in the U.S. are a conglomeration of nationalities, likely one of the strengths of the U.S.  

I read somewhere - probably here or in one of the books - that Leone turned down the Godfather job because he was more intrigued by the legacy of jewish gangsters.  Most stereotype jewish folks as accountants, lawyers, etc. who can't do auto repairs, fix-ups, construction, manufacturing, etc., but that's just a msterotype.  Guess who does this stuff in the country of Israel?  Even in sports: look at the early history of the NBA, remember Sandy Koufax (I saw him play), Hank Greenberg?  Nowadays, such stuff doesn't even make the news.  But Leone wanted to show that side of the culture.

Now there's a black President, and looks like he'll be running against a Mormon.  When Kennedy was running, there was discrimination against a catholic candidate; even Humphrey in the primaries had a campaign song "Give me that old time religion", subtlely (or not so subtle) reminder that Kennedy had a different religion.  Race relations in the US, the first real mixed-race country have improved dramatically in the past 50 years, but it just doesn't happen overnight.  As folks work with, play on sports teams with and against others, the barriers break, but not overnight.

Years ago, I had a girlfriend Debbie who was Italian-Mexican, and catholic.  Her parents were split up so she called herself  Mexican, but she was the same as everybody else.  Being half-Mexican and/or catholic didn't make any difference, and was NOT a factor, plus or minus: she was Debbie !!!

Thanks for the lesson on race relations, Cusser  (Koufax and Greenberg played in MLB, not the NBA. And here's a little nugget of info: In 1951, Koufax played basketball in a league based out of a local Jewish Community House in Bensonhurst, and won the lcal championship. To this day, the center has photos hanging just outside its gym, of its team from each year. The picture of the 1951 team, including Koufax, still hangs outside the gym -- a 2- minute walk from my house http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Koufax#Early_life )

As for the reason Leone chose to do The Hoods and turned down The Godfather, I didn't read that it's specifically because he wanted to do a story about Jewish gangsters. He had read The Hoods (actually, his brother i law had read it to him; Leone couldn't read English) and he was thinking about doing a movie on it  by the time of GBU. He wanted to make the movie immediately after GBU, but the studio wanted another Western, they promised him he could do his gangster epic if he did another Western first, and that is how OUATITW came about. Afterward, Leone turned his attention to doing The Hoods. But it got bogged down for several reasons, including the fact that someone else owned the movie rights and it took a long time for Alberto Grimaldi to buy it from that person for Leone, then there were disputes with Grimaldi, who left the project but sold the rights to Leone, etc. etc. and it took a decade and a half to get off the ground, which it finally did when Arnon Milchan agreed to produce it. On p. 437 of STDWD, Frayling says, "The reason Arnon Milchan had managed to get the film off the ground where others had failed was entirely because of Robert De Niro," and Frayling then goes on to describe De Niro's involvement.
So for the decade and a half following GBU, Leone was focusing on doing OUATIA. So I guess it is understandable that when he was approached to do The Godfather, another gangster movie, he'd turn it down cuz he was focused on his own, very different, gangster movie. Of course, as it turned out, OUATIA isn't really a "gangster movie" like The Godfather is; it's really about Time and Dreams and Cinema, etc.

I pretty much got all this info from Frayling's amazing chapter on OUATIA.  It's about 85 pages long and just brilliant. I think it has much more info on that movie than on the other movies cuz it was made much later, and by the time Frayling wrote his book, most of the people involved in that movie (besides Leone) were still alive, and Frayling already knew Leone personally by the time of the making of that movie. So there is a wealth of information on the making of OUATIA, it's worth buying STDWD for that chapter alone  

As for the issue of Jewish gangsters, and why Hollywood always depicted Italian and Irish gangs, but rarely Jews: one possible reason I read (I think it was also in STDWD) is that the studio heads were mostly Jewish immigrants from European countries, who had escaped persecution, and they were grateful for American freedoms and tried blending quietly into American society; many of them ditched their religion and "Americanized" their names, eg. Sam Goldwyn was born in Poland as Shmuel Gelbfish; (same with many actors of the early days of Hollywood, eg. Edward G. Robinson was born Emmanuel Goldenberg in Romania; Julius Garfinkle changed his name to John Garfield at the request of Jack Warner). Anyway, these studio heads who had escaped persecution in Europe were careful not to do anything that might arouse Jew-hatred, so, according to Frayling, that's why they refrained from depicting Jewish gangsters on screen.

Similarly, Leone specifically sought to distinguish between Italian gangsters and Jewish gangsters: Italians admired the gangsters from within their community; the Jews despised Jewish gangsters. (This is emphasized in The Hoods as well). That's the point of the scene with the limo driver, which has recently been restored -- he is a Jew who, like the rest of his community, despises Noodles and his kind.

[drinkanddestroy]

Okay, I found some of the sources in STDWD for what i said in the previous posts:

Leone's assertion about the kind of gangster Grey was is on p. 391 of STDWD: Frayling quotes Leone as saying that Noodles was "a poor man who had tried his luck, a long time ago, with a machine gun in his hand, and a Borsalino on his head: his destiny was to become obscure and miserable... There was no Homer to sing the song of Harry Grey who, however, had attempted to write his own poem of crime."

And for the part about why the movie studios didn't depict Jewish gangsters, that's on p. 386 of STDWD: After describing how the movie moguls were mostly Jewish immigrants from Europe, Frayling says: "And by 1908, there were 100 movie houses in the Jewish quarter of New York alone. But in disseminating and to some extent creating the "American Dream," the moguls submerged their own ethnic identity and avoidd subjects that could in any way arouse prejudice against them. Their families had experienced enough of that back in Europe. The low esteem in which the movies were held by the WASP cultural establishment made the film industry the perfect route for the complete assimilation of the moguls into the host community. For obvious reasons, Jewish gangsters were out."
(A footnote offers no less than 6 sources "on this aspect of the history of the gangster film.")


The part about scene with the limo driver depicting the hatred that the Jewish community had for Jewish gangsters is on p. 437: In this scene, Leone said, is "where you can feel intuitively their mutual concern and where the difference between the Italian Mafia and the Jewish equivalent is explained. The Jewish people did not admire their gangsters, unlike the Italo-Americans."

[Cusser]

My "info" was for Harry, who I believe has always lived in Europe.

I didn't say Koufax and Greenberg played in the NBA; I saw Koufax and Drysadale pitch games of a doubleheader against the Pirates in 1966 in Forbes Field; Pirates won both.

[drinkanddestroy]

I saw Koufax and Drysadale pitch games of a doubleheader against the Pirates in 1966 in Forbes Field; Pirates won both.

That's awesome 

[Harry Goldberg]

Hi Harry.

Welcome to the board and hope your research goes well.

I have no doubts that Harry Grey/Goldberg was a small-time hood who had speakeasies and did jobs on his own account and for Frank Costello and the mob.  Events similar to most of those described in the book will have happened in real life but it is likely that Grey's involvement has been exaggerated.

Some facts about Harry Grey/Goldberg which may have not been mentioned here:

Shortly before filming started in June 1982, Sergio Leone tried to contact Harry Grey/Goldberg. He was told that he had died a few weeks earlier.  So the date of death of Harry Grey/Goldberg was approx. Feb/Mar 1982.  Death certificates and records would then show Goldberg's approximate date of birth.

All Sergio Leone's meetings with Harry Grey/Goldberg were in the New York/Brooklyn/Queens areas.

If Goldberg's father was named Israel and died in 1916 that would help with census and death records.

Harry Grey/Goldberg wrote the book whilst he was in Sing Sing.


Ron Arons is a Jew living in New York whose grandfather did time in Sing Sing.  He has spent many years researching Jews who did time there and has visited Sing Sing as a researcher.  He has written books including The Jews of Sing-Sing and does talks on researching criminal ancestors.  His contact details and a free on-line searchable database of the inmates of Sing Sing is at his web site:

www.ronarons.com
 

And, between you, is there anyone who's ever tried to ask Ron Arons something about this imaginary Harry Goldberg? It's required to pay a sum of money for talking to him? or simply send him an e-mail and waiting for his answer? (sorry for my poor english)

[Harry Goldberg]

Furthermore, is there anyone who has ever seen (or think to have seen) real Harry Goldberg's picture on some American website or something like that?

If there isn't, do you know where we could attempt a research on some website where we could have the possibility to find one?

[drinkanddestroy]

I see that this guy Ron Arons is speaking in New York on Thursday   Seems like he is the expert at doing this sort of research; I'd bet that he knows about Grey. You can send him an email here http://www.ronarons.com/contact.php

---

Frayling says that in publicity photos, Grey would appear with his hat brim pulled low and a trench coat with his collar turned up, looking like a gangster. So I guess Frayling may have seen those pictures (unless someone else told him that info).

[Harry Goldberg]

I see that this guy Ron Arons is speaking in New York on Thursday  

---

Frayling says that in publicity photos, Grey would appear with his hat brim pulled low and a trench coat with his collar turned up, looking like a gangster. So I guess Frayling may have seen those pictures (unless someone else told him that info).

But does anyone know where one of these utopian pictures could be viewable?  I suppose, obviously, you don't.

*However, i've just sent an e-mail to Ron Arons (as recommended) adducing to my question the result of the Harry Goldberg family tree's census research at. pag. 1 of this topic, asking him if he agrees with that.

Moreover, exploring his website, i noticed a "Inmate Database" too, i entered, obviously, Goldberg surname and in the list which resulted there are many" Harry Goldberg"(http://www.ronarons.com/_arons.php), so i gave up looking for him. It's curious to note that there's even a Samuel Goldberg (maybe he was really Srulik, Harry's father) incarcerated 1 time in Sing Sing in 1890's.

[chris]

I've never seen any photos of Harry Grey/Goldberg but Sergio Leone described him as short and thick-set with a bull neck, a very smooth face and the rosy complexion of a child, looking something like Edward G Robinson.

At the first meeting between Sergio Leone and Harry Grey in 1968, Leone thought he was over 70 years of age but in the book he is in 7th grade school in 1914. Date of birth could be anytime between 1895 to 1905. I think Delancey Street was in Ward 13 of Manhattan.

I did query something once with Ron Arons and he was very helpful. There is a chapter in his book Jews of Sing Sing about Harry Goldberg aka Henry Goldberg aka Dutch Goldberg but it's a while since I read the book and I don't think it's our Harry Grey/Goldberg.

As you say many Goldbergs have been incarcerated at Sing Sing.  Ron was willing to supply me with further information but the names need to be narrowed down.

Since then I've done my own family tree using www.ancestry.com and associated sites. They claim to have the largest on-line collection of genealogical information in the world and offer a free 14 day trial period.