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dave jenkins
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« #45 : July 06, 2012, 01:39:03 PM »

the point of Noodles seeing the graves being dug up is supposed to be symbolic, how the past is being destroyed, per the themes of the movie of passage of time, dreams and fantasy, etc.
Isn't it more likely that digging up old graves represents uncovering and re-discovering the past? The 1968 portion of the film is largely about taking a second look at the events of 1933 to find out what really happened then.



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« #46 : July 06, 2012, 04:40:10 PM »

Isn't it more likely that digging up old graves represents uncovering and re-discovering the past? The 1968 portion of the film is largely about taking a second look at the events of 1933 to find out what really happened then.

yes, I suppose so  O0


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« #47 : July 07, 2012, 08:46:31 AM »

Patsy, at least in the Italian version of the book, is italian, then i don't know (as for the same Noodles) if this "Patrick" has ever been a mobster or not..
Patsy is also Italian in the English version. At Dominick's funeral, Patsy interprets for the gang the italian words spoken by Dominick's parents and relatives.
Prior to going to the casino, the gang send out for a tailor (Mr Schwartz) to measure them for evening clothes.
Noodles nods his head at Patsy and says to Mr Schwartz "We're not all Jewish gangsters. He's an Italian gangster."
 
Historically Jewish and Italian gangsters often got on well.
 

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« #48 : July 07, 2012, 09:03:26 AM »

I have never met a Jew named Patsy or Patrick!

I don't do FaceBook, but just did a quick search and there are 10 Patrick Goldsteins there.  I didn't search Pat Goldstein or other last names.

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« #49 : July 07, 2012, 10:04:30 AM »

I have a couple of distant relatives who live in New Jersey and regrettably I used up my free 14 day trial with Ancestry.com when I was doing my family tree last year.

There are however free searchable databases of New York City Death Records 1862-1948 & Births 1890-1909


Deaths:  http://www.italiangen.org/NYCDeathSearch.asp


Births:  http://www.italiangen.org/NYCBirthsearch.asp


It looks like Harry Grey/Goldberg has thrown us a curve ball again. There's no recorded death of Israel Goldberg from 1915 to 1919 in Manhattan.

Plenty of other Goldbergs though e.g. Hyman I Goldberg, Samuel Goldberg and, ironically, Aaron Goldberg.   Also several Israel Goldbergs in Kings.


There's a Public Family Tree at Ancestry.com for Harry Goldberg born 1903/4 son of Samuel & Sarah.  Looks the same one mentioned on page 1 of this thread.  
Also a comment from Lindaruben with a note from Harry's son Barney saying he has some more information about his grandparents Samuel & Sarah and presumably his father Harry.



  

« : July 25, 2017, 06:15:59 AM chris »
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« #50 : July 07, 2012, 03:28:32 PM »

It should mostly all take place in Kings Country (Brooklyn) no?


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« #51 : July 07, 2012, 07:05:01 PM »

It should mostly all take place in Kings Country (Brooklyn) no?

No, in the book they live on Delancey Street, which is in Lower East Side.


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« #52 : July 07, 2012, 09:55:01 PM »

No, in the book they live on Delancey Street, which is in Lower East Side.

ok


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« #53 : July 09, 2012, 06:29:56 AM »

Some Sergio Leone quotes from Oreste De Fornari's book:

Harry Grey/Goldberg spent 15 years in Sing Sing
Grey's wife had been an elementary school teacher
Grey was 73 years of age when Grey saw Max in handcuffs on TV


From Simsolo:

Grey was 70 years old when Max first suggested they do another job together
His real name was Harry Goldberg


From Gabutti:

In 1968 Grey was over 70 years of age
Grey's wife was an elderley ex-schoolteacher


From Brian Case Sunday Times Magazine 1984:

Leone was approaching 40, Grey was in his seventies


And from Cahiers:

Harry Goldberg wrote this book of memories under the pseudonym of Harry Grey
Grey died 3 months before shooting began


N Y Times March 1982


N Y census 1940



« : July 25, 2017, 06:15:41 AM chris »
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« #54 : July 09, 2012, 08:00:13 AM »

What are we to make of this? If Harry Goldberg was 45 in 1940, then he wasn't in his 70s in 1982.



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« #55 : July 09, 2012, 08:39:45 AM »

For that matter, can we confirm this is the same individual?



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« #56 : July 09, 2012, 09:21:13 AM »

Sergio Leone said that, at their first meeting in 1968, Harry Grey/Goldberg was over 70 years of age.

Whilst Harry Goldberg b. 1903/4 son of Samuel & Sarah from Delancey Street fits some of the details in 'The Hoods', it seems unlikely he is our guy.

We may get a more accurate profile if details in 'The Hoods' are ignored for present.

Harry Goldberg b. 1895 d. 1982 matches some of the facts we know and he would have been about 73 at the 1968 meeting.  

Harry Grey's death in 1982 certainly narrows down the number of matching Harry Goldbergs and I'll have a look at other official records over the next couple of months.

15 years in Sing Sing seems a long time.  It would exclude some of the Harry Goldbergs in Ron Aron's database.

2531 Beverley Road Brooklyn still exists, I think.

 

« : July 09, 2012, 09:35:25 AM chris »
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« #57 : July 09, 2012, 10:16:42 AM »

Also, I believe that census records have to be filled out voluntarily.

I am reminded of Ray Liotta's comment at the end of Goodfellas that he never voted, his drivers license and id's were all fakes (paraphrasing) :"my birth certificate and my arrest sheet: that's all you'd have to know I was alive." Can we rely on a gangster, who presumably does all he can to lay low as far as the government is concerned, to fill out census sheets with accurate records of his family and address? It would seem to me that the better chance is to get the census record filled out by his parents, who had nothing to hide, so we should look for the ones that are filled out by a person with a child named Harry Goldberg, rather than the ones filled out by a Harry Goldberg himself.


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« #58 : July 09, 2012, 10:33:38 AM »

Also, I believe that census records have to be filled out voluntarily.

I am reminded of Ray Liotta's comment at the end of Goodfellas that he never voted, his drivers license and id's were all fakes (paraphrasing) :"my birth certificate and my arrest sheet: that's all you'd have to know I was alive." Can we rely on a gangster, who presumably does all he can to lay low as far as the government is concerned, to fill out census sheets with accurate records of his family and address? It would seem to me that the better chance is to get the census record filled out by his parents, who had nothing to hide, so we should look for the ones that are filled out by a person with a child named Harry Goldberg, rather than the ones filled out by a Harry Goldberg himself.

This is true. On the other hand, Goldberg/Grey was from an older generation of gangsters than Hill and Co., and probably less sophisticated. They may not have bothered with falsifying names or records at the time.

Still I don't think Harry Goldberg could be that uncommon a name, but that's just me.



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« #59 : July 09, 2012, 10:52:30 AM »

This is true. On the other hand, Goldberg/Grey was from an older generation of gangsters than Hill and Co., and probably less sophisticated. They may not have bothered with falsifying names or records at the time.
My thought exactly.



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