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Author Topic: The Hoods  (Read 79927 times)
drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #120 on: February 10, 2013, 12:03:08 PM »

I didn't notice that, who did all the updates on the wikipedia page?

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« Reply #121 on: February 14, 2013, 03:00:44 AM »

Chris did it Smiley

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harry_Grey&action=history

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« Reply #122 on: May 12, 2013, 06:04:29 AM »

Guys give me a sign.. this tread seems dead


I hope I'm wrong but I don't think we'll see any further significant posts on Harry Grey anytime soon.

We already have some biographical details provided by his son Simeon for the Palm Springs Walk Of Stars.  Simeon was born in 1941 and probably does not know the full extent of his father's criminal career.  It's likely that the details he provided are sanitized to enable Harry to be accepted for a Star and he may be confusing him with another Harry Grey who was a musician and a producer of many films and shows.

We have some details provided by Sergio Leone (Gili, De Fornari, Simsolo and Cahiers) and I wrote to Stuart Kaminsky once about Grey but didn't get a reply.

Factually we have copies of censuses for 1910, 1915, 1920, 1925, 1930 and 1940, a copy of the death index and a short obituary which was published in the NY Times.

There is a Harry Goldberg (born 1901) in the 1910 census for the Jewish home.

I can find no record of Harry in the censuses for Sing Sing or any details of the family in the 1935 census.

The 1940 census was only fairly recently published and I may have a further look when the 1945 census is available.
  
 

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« Reply #123 on: May 31, 2013, 05:54:06 AM »

The board's NYC tours have concentrated on the locations in the movie and it may be interesting to learn a bit more about places mentioned in the book e.g.

Hotel Pennsylvania Baths 7th Ave 32/33 Street
Lutkee's Turkish Baths (possibly now Russian & Turkish baths 268 East 10th St NYC)
Fortune Hotel NYC
Federal Reserve Bank
Fulton Fish Market
Yonah Schimmel Knish Bakery 137 East Houston Street
Katz's delicatessen Houston Street
Spevaks Candy Store Hester Street
Sam's All Nite Coffee Pot Delancey Street
Sussman Volk's delicatessen Delancey Street
Ben Reilly's Arrowhead Inn 2071 State Highway 88
The Jewish Home, Cedar Knolls, 226 Linda Ave Hawthorne

Hope you enjoy your sojourn in NY.
 
 

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drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #124 on: May 31, 2013, 08:06:48 AM »

Let's come down talking about Noodle's lifetime details.. he resided (i think he was the owner of his room, it's likely) in Pennsylvania Hotel, in NY, in front of Madison Square, Midtown, 7th avenue, i'm going to sojourn there next summer, in august, and i'll tell you how is it, all about the historical reminisence.. even Michael Corleone, in Mario Puzo's novel (if you read it), stayed in Pennsylvania..
and an incredible consideration, it's very cheap to be in Midtown Manhattan compared to all the other hotels in that side..

i took my Law School Aptitude Test (LSAT) in Hotel Pennsylvania.

but wtf are you so fascinated by a guy who was at best a loser and liar; at worst, a murderer and  a thief? really, do you feel that the ground he tread upon is holy? you may have enjoyed the book and movie, but your fascination for this creep is, well, creepy. I walk these streets all the time, and never do i feel any excitement, "Noodles was here!" i would only get excited over seeing filming locations. as for the real Noodles, I'd spit on his grave if I knew where it was

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« Reply #125 on: May 31, 2013, 01:10:43 PM »

obviously, you've completely confused my meaning; i dont' consider holy the ground he traveled on, but try to understand, i've always been very fascinated by the movie, the book and Noodles' character so much that i can't ignore the places he lived his debatable life.. New York Prohibition era is for me the most interesting period in the recent history, and i read and study very much, you can believe me, so i do have terms of comparison.

1) so you live in NY and walk 7th avenue every time?? Damn.. you're so lucky living there, i wanna buy a flat in Upper East Side if i'll ever have the money.. what are the prices for a a studio flat (about 70 square meters) there?

2) and about his grave, i don't think it's so difficult, just go around for the cemeteries of Manhattan and ask about Harry Grey, or Goldberg, or Herschel Goldberg, giving the receptionist his birth and death date we deducted from his obituary and i think it won't be a great problem finding him.. you can even take a picture of it and post that here.. (is my English understandable?).

yeah, real estate in Manhattan is one of the most expensive in the world; you'll have to look online or talk to a real estate agent or someone to find out exact prices. (But we use feet here, not meters, so you better be able to convert it).

yes, I agree, living in New York is great. I am actually living in Brooklyn right now, not Manhattan (for most people, Brooklyn is insanely noisy and busy, but for me, I love Manhattan so much, Brooklyn seems dead to me!) I hope to move to Manhattan sometime soon.

Hotel Pennsylvania is directly across the street from Madison Square Garden; I have passed outside a million times, and was inside upstairs once to take my LSAT, and have been in the lobby a few times.

Personally, if I were visiting Midtown, I wouldn't wanna stay in that hotel (although if it's cheaper than others and you wanna save money, that's different). If you look at the design of the building, as I recall it, is basically four rectangle buildings rising out of a single base http://maps.google.com/maps?q=hotel+pennsylvania+aerial+view&ll=40.74989,-73.989798&spn=0.001938,0.0039&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&fb=1&gl=us&hq=hotel+pennsylvania+aerial+view&hnear=hotel+pennsylvania+aerial+view&cid=0,0,14468783481224999844&t=h&z=18

This means that, unless you are lucky enough (and pay enough?) to be in the front building facing 7th Avenue, you will be in a room that is facing another building right in front of it. In other words, the view will be awful. But view is not everything, of course. I did walk the halls once, and it seemed to me that the halls that this old-building sort of smell. This was 7 years ago; I don't know what has happened since then. (btw, when I was there, I saw a picture of an old ad for the hotel, which I believe advertised it as the largest hotel in the world, or maybe in America, at that time. But that was many decades ago. And reading wikipedia now, I see there has been a major back-and-forth battle over demolishing the hotel, or investing to remodel it; right  it looks like the owners are gonna invest in remodeling it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_Pennsylvania#Proposed_demolition )
I shoudl emphasize that I have never been inside any of the hotel rooms, so I have no idea what they are like.
There is no doubt that the hotel is a historic one in an unbelievable location. If you visit between October and June, be sure to go across the street to The Garden and catch a Knicks basketball game or a Rangers hockey game.
 But again, I would advise you to specifically ask that your room in the hotel  face 7th Avenue; I don't know whether or not that costs more, but otherwise, it appears to me that you'll be facing a building and a courtyard.

A while ago, cj and dj and I went on a tour of the NYC filming locations of OUATIA: I proposed that the next tour be of the actual Lower East Side locations that appear in The Hoods; but that hasn't happened yet.

Sorry if I misinterpreted your fascination with Grey. I mean, yeah, history has a way of being interesting whether it's good or bad, but it seemed to me like you were in love with the guy; if I am wrong, I am sorry. I may be interested in the historical stuff, but I despise a murderer and thief and I despise those people who love them and actually cheer them on.


Harry Goldberg (or Harold Goldberg or Herschel Goldberg) is about as common a Jewish name as you could find, so it would be incredibly difficult to find his grave from doing a cold search. With that said, I have zero interest whatsoever in visiting the grave of that bastard who is burning in hell.

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« Reply #126 on: May 31, 2013, 03:19:07 PM »

1) that kind of people actually were from Sicily, i was born in Lombardy, borderign with Switzerland, nortern Italy, but i equally feel very close to these people because they came from my same country, it's a kind of sense of common belonging Smiley

 Roll Eyes

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« Reply #127 on: June 01, 2013, 02:12:42 PM »

This sentence is out of context and either Leone is not being meticulous about his choice of words, his words have been incorrectly transferred to the preface or his words are simply being misconstrued.  Leone has mentioned on numerous occasions that Harry Grey's real last name was Goldberg.

Noel Simsolo's Conversations Avec Sergio Leone
Leone: "Son veritable nom était Goldberg."

Cahiers
Leone: "Ce qui m'a le plus touché, quand j'ai parlé avec Harry Goldberg, qui a écrit à Sing-Sing en le signant du nom d'Harry Grey ce livre de souvenirs dont je suis parti..."

Oreste De Fornari
Franco Ferrini: "Goldberg...the name of the author of the book upon which the movie is based."

Jean A Gili
Leone: "In reality, Harry Grey's name was Goldberg and he was a Jew who, I think, worked in perfect symbiosis with the Italians."

 

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« Reply #128 on: June 01, 2013, 04:35:09 PM »

It could be simpler than that: Goldberg was the guy's legal name and Aaronson one of his AKAs (or vice versa).

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« Reply #129 on: June 01, 2013, 05:07:32 PM »

It could be simpler than that: Goldberg was the guy's legal name and Aaronson one of his AKAs (or vice versa).

Simpler how? If his real name was HG then Leone had no use bringing up an alias: why complicate things? I wonder if the name DA is to be found only in this preface, anyway.    But we can also assume that HG's complete name was Harry David Aaronson Goldberg: who knows? Or maybe Leone was thinking about somebody else when he wrote the preface (doubtful, but you never can tell). And still, when you sign cheques to a person to acquire the rights to his work you're not likely to forget his name: and Leone was very particular about his money.  
I can advance the hypothesis that Leone agreed with Grey to keep his true identity unrevealed and give the  fictitious name "Harry Goldberg" for interviews sake.  Then maybe forgot the pact and let the true name slip, given a more serious occasion like a preface of a book bearing his name and given also the fact that the book was to be found only in Italy in pre internet times. Also assuming that the people from whom HG wanted presumably to protect himself didn't  buy (let alone read) books: and in italian at that. Also note that if Harry Goldberg wanted to keep his identity a secret and give no hint about his real name, then "Henry Grey" wouldn't be such a big choice, given the litlle difference in the spelling of the name and the identical initials. On the contrary, if his real name were DA, then  Henry Grey would make sense.
  

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« Reply #130 on: June 01, 2013, 05:57:44 PM »

I loved your reasoning, but it's totally mistaken; we have the evidence about the autenticity of his name through ancestry.com, his obituary and his dedication ("my true and loyal mob": M, B, H & S) which perfectly match with his wife and sons' name (respectively, Mildred, Beverly, Harvey and Simeon).. then we have Palm Springs star, and moreover his brother's name (Hyman Goldberg, nota bene the surname) and even his cookbook, and as if that wasn't enough, his father's name, Israel, corresponds with ancestry record: Israel Goldberg. At most David Aaronson could be his second name and surname, but i doubt.. or maybe, EVEN SIMPLER, Leone asked him to choose to his liking the name that Noodles would have had in his film adaptation, which would have consigned him to history and consecrated in the collective imagination, so, just for pure delight, he preferred naming his lifetime creation David Aaronson, because he liked that way.. couldn't be?

I had thought about that too, but not having read the book yet, and not having a precise memory of the movie I preferred not to make a case of it. But, sure, that could be, too. That being the case though, then I would have to consider Leone's preface not an introduction to the book but to his movie. That would be highly uncorrect toward Harry Goldberg, even if Leone in his preface remarks how much of the book is probably derivative of filmic experiences. When you write a preface to a book it is because you want to pay a hommage to his author: and not even naming him correctly (actually, superimposing your given identity of a character to his own) would be an act of grave discourtesy or, alternatively, a curious case of forgetfulness.

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« Reply #131 on: June 01, 2013, 06:29:34 PM »

or just a case to project the reader into the will to watch the movie...

How, if even we don't know what he's talking about?

If we read again the line I translated he draws a line between his movie and the "recollections...we are holding in our hands". So why, when he's just operating distinctions between his own work of fantasy and a more realistic source, he comes up glueing up to the last a fictitious element? That is very odd. And awkward.

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« Reply #132 on: June 02, 2013, 03:36:05 AM »

And still, when you sign cheques to a person to acquire the rights to his work you're not likely to forget his name: and Leone was very particular about his money.  

  

Leone never would have had a reason to sign a check to Grey. Leone did not purchase the rights from Grey. Remember, someone else had purchased the movie rights to The Hoods from Grey, and Leone spent a long time trying to acquire them from that person (one of the reasons that it took so long for OUATIA to get off the ground). And when the rights were eventually acquired, it was actually Alberto Grimaldi who purchased them (before Grimaldi ultimately left the project). The details are in Frayling's chapter on OUATIA.
(Of course, It's still strange that Leone would have screwed up the name, but just pointing out that Leone did not purchase the movie rights from Grey).

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« Reply #133 on: June 02, 2013, 09:18:50 AM »

Thanx. 

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« Reply #134 on: June 09, 2013, 04:44:29 AM »

If the last 2 posts are directed towards drinkanddestroy, it's not surprising that they've not been responded to. Drinkanddestroy has said several times that he has no interest in Harry Grey or The Hoods apart from their association with the movie.  It might be interesting to read the Italian preface in full but it's too much to expect titoli to scan it and post a link.

Some years ago I did a search on David Aaronson but it didn't reveal anything.  It's still my opinion that the name David Aaronson is simply a name invented by Leone and his team for Noodles in the movie and any suggestion that it is more than this is just misguided.

Regarding cemeteries - not all have searchable on-line databases and I'm not aware of further details. Harry Grey's death and obituary was registered under the name of Grey.
 
 

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