Sergio Leone Web Board
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 24, 2017, 05:36:13 AM
Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
News:


+  Sergio Leone Web Board
|-+  Films of Sergio Leone
| |-+  Once Upon A Time In America (Moderators: cigar joe, moviesceleton, Dust Devil)
| | |-+  The Hoods
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 Go Down Print
Author Topic: The Hoods  (Read 78028 times)
chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #135 on: June 11, 2013, 03:15:02 AM »

So you try to do it: Mount Hebron Cemetery, Harry Grey (1901-1980), same place where supposedly his brother's buried.

A quick search on Harry Grey Oct 1980 at Mount Hebron doesn't reveal anything.


http://www.mounthebroncemetery.com/search.asp


It's possible that, similar to the book,  Harry and his brother didn't get along.  They seem to live in different areas.  Hyman died on Sep 19/20 1970 and whilst the entry at Mount Hebron may relate to him, it's not guaranteed 100%.  A lot is known about Hyman and his wife Naomi.  She is related to the Selsman/Pollack family, who immigrated to the U.S. from Odessa in 1900.  However Hyman and Naomi are not our main interest and I don't see any benefit in doing further research on them.  


  

« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 07:03:16 AM by chris » Logged
titoli
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8010



View Profile
« Reply #136 on: June 11, 2013, 05:20:49 AM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_%22Noodles%22_Aaronson

Logged

chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #137 on: June 12, 2013, 05:01:32 AM »

Well, Harry lived in Queens for the rest of his life, try with one Jewish cemetery..

I don't think we can say for certain that Harry lived in Queens.  In 1905 he may have been living in Manhattan's Lower East Side but by 1910 the records indicate that he and his family were living in Brooklyn and from 1915 to 1950 The Bronx.  The fact that Sergio Leone met Harry Grey in a bar in Queens in 1968 may not be significant.  

Harry died at Zip code 10028 NY which I think is the Upper East Side near Central Park between 81st Street and 86th Street.  We also know that Harry's brother Hyman was living at 1425 Bedford Street Stamford Connecticut when he died.

As I've posted before, not all cemeteries have databases which are searchable on-line.  Previous searches at the databases which are accessible on-line such as ancestry.com and find a grave have not revealed anything.

Find a grave - Hyman Goldberg

Find a grave - Harry Grey

Find a grave - search form

It's quite possible that Harry Grey or his relatives would wish to keep the whereabouts of his last resting place secret.  There are occasions in the past where graves of gangsters and others have been vandalised and Harry Grey was very keen on keeping his identity and location secret.
  
  

« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 05:04:08 AM by chris » Logged
chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #138 on: June 14, 2013, 03:45:21 AM »

Harry Grey lived in Central Park in the latter part of his life??? Where did you get this??

I actually posted "Zip code 10028 NY which I think is the Upper East Side near Central Park between 81st Street and 86th Street."  

Last Residence entry on the Social Security Death Index from one of my earlier posts on this thread:

... and he died (if i remember correctly) in an hospital in Brooklyn...

I don't know where you got this from. There is a fictionalized part of The Hoods where Harry's father died from pneumonia in Bellevue hospital, Manhattan.

Let's do a research on THE OLD JEWISH CEMETERY, 88th street Manhattan

I thought this cemetery closed many years ago.  Although it would be good to know where Harry was buried, and perhaps visit it one day, I don't think it will help in the slightest with my main interest which is to do with Harry's actual life and criminal and non-criminal activities.

I don't live in the U.S. and don't have any more access to burial records than any other internet user.  This sounds more suited to include as a project for your forthcoming sojourn in New York.

 

« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 07:03:01 AM by chris » Logged
chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #139 on: June 15, 2013, 06:10:55 AM »

... the saddest notes is actually discovering that, following the map that you have posted about the different houses his family has lived, he never lived in Delancey Street as he narrated mythologized throughout his childhood.. perhaps not even Fat Moe's never owned a Deli there, supposing that he's existed for real, and also supposing that Harry was actually Fat Moe, but living in Bronx, as your residential mapping, Chris, shows.

I've never said that Harry never lived in Delancey Street and personally I don't believe he had any similarities with the Fat Moe character, other than his parents had a restaurant for a short period of time.

We know more about Harry's brother Hyman and his wife Naomi.  Naomi's father was Louis Katz and her mother was Malvina Selsman.  Malvina came from a forested area in the Oddessa region of Russia where her parents, Simon and Scheindel Pollack, had a successful logging business. Simon and Scheindel had 13 children.  The pogroms by the Russians against the Jews were among the main reasons for the waves of Jews emigrating from Russia. Moreover, two of Simon’s sons, Arye-Leib and Reuben, had already been drafted into the army and Simon did not want to lose any more of his sons to the Russians' wars.

In 1900, several of the children immigrated to the U.S. and they changed the family name from Pollack to Selsman.  Initially the family lived in the Lower East Side of Manhattan.  Malvina learned English and as a young adult became the senior buyer for a men’s clothing store in NYC.  In 1913 she met Louis Katz, a young business owner of a men’s Clothing store in NYC.  On March 28, 1914, Malvina and Louis married.  The young couple moved into an apartment in Buffalo, NY where Louis bought a men’s clothing store. On January 1, 1915, Naomi, their first child was born.  Not long thereafter, during a short period when the insurance on the store had lapsed, it caught fire and burned to the ground.  The family moved to Sea Gate, a gated community in NY, where Louis’s family lived.  On December 8, 1918, their second child, Sheila, was born, and the family lived in Sea Gate until 1923, when they moved to the Bronx.

It's possible that Harry took a similar route, travelling from Russia to the U.S., then to Delancey Street in 1905, then to Brooklyn and then to the Bronx.

Harry's follow up to The Hoods, "Call Me Duke", was set in the Bronx.

It's probable that the dedication at the beginning of The Hoods "To my true and loyal mob M., B., H. and S." refers to his wife Mildred and their children Beverle Harvey and Simeon.

It is Leone's opinion that Harry was a gangster and an associate of Frank Costello and there is possibly some confirmation on the book's cover "This book by HARRY GREY --an ex-hood himself! --will shock you but you must read it. He dares to tell the truth about cold-blooded Killer Mobs and how they work." --Mickey Spillaine. Written in prison by author Grey, this legendary novel became the source for Sergio Leone's classic Once Upon a Time in America.

There are some details about Harry Grey and his meetings with Sergio Leone in the Simsolo and De Fornari books.
Sergio Leone: "Il m'avoua que la seule liberté qu'il avait prise dans le livre c'était à propos de Max."

I think this "sole liberty" needs to be read in conjunction with Harry Grey's statement in Chapter 12 of The Hoods:

"Everybody writes books, why shouldn't I? Let's see, how shall I treat it? As a factual, biographical piece? Nah, no good. The actual facts would land me and everybody else in jail. I'll treat it as escapist stuff, omitting time and slightly camouflaging the place. That's it. I'll sort of blend factual happenings into fiction."

So when the book begins with Noodles and the others in the classroom of a Lower East Side school in about 1914, this is untrue. He may have however attended a Lower East Side School prior to 1910.  Monk Eastman and his gang got kids such as Noodles and the others to carry baseball bats for them.

Noodles may have been sent to The Jewish Home, Cedar Knolls, Hawthorne but it was in 1910 not 1920 as in the book.

In August 1912, a group of influential NYC German-American Jews assigned Abe Shoenfeld to head a team of private investigators who would check out and report on the Jewish criminals and vice lords of NYC's Lower East Side.  At the end of Shoenfeld's assignment, he had written biographical vignettes on approx. 1900 people. One of Shoenfeld's reports included a list of people who regulary visited Segal's Cafe on Second Avenue in the early hours of the morning and these included Harry Golderg who was described at the time as a pickpocket and all-around thief (gonif?).

Others described in this way were Bennie Greenie, Markey English, Candy Kid Phil, Patsye Keegan, Carl Hudis alias Harry Cohen, Bockso, Little Keever, McKinley, Mendel, Lhulki, Louis Cruller, Big Nose Willie, Herman Scheiner - alias Chaim The Mummey, Yanish, Schorr and Monahickey.  Prostitutes include Dinah Hudis and Jennie Morris alias Jennie The Factory.

In the same report on people who regulary visited Segal's Cafe, slightly before Harry's name, were Whitey Lewis and Lefty Louis - indicted and convicted in the Rosenthal Affair.  Lefty Louie is mentioned near the beginning of the book.  Teacher old safety-pin Miss Mons taught Lefty Louie & Dago Frank and read about their execution in the electric chair (13 April 1914) and Noodles says that Lefty Louie was a friend of his uncle Abraham.
 
Similar hangouts to Segal's Cafe were:

Gluckow's Odessa Tea House, Broome St
The University Cafe, Rivington
Simmie Tischler's, Rivington
Max Himmel's, Delancey
Harry Blinderman's, Delancey
Blattberg's Saloon, Stanton
The Onyx, Stanton
Sam Boske's Hop Joint, Stanton
Dora Gold's candy store, First Street
Gucker's Saloon, Second Street
Sam Paul's, Seventh St

Noodles' father was called Israel (Srulik) but he didn't die of pneumonia in Bellevue Hospital in 1916.  He was taken seriously ill before this date and had to stay in hospital for a while.

Noodles' kid brother (Hyman) was a newspaper reporter. True.

Towards the end of the book are several pages describing the disposal of the corpse of Supreme Court Justice Joseph Force Crater. The disappearance is true (1930) and Crater was probably killed and his body disposed of but it's doubtful whether Noodles and the others were involved.

Noodles' mother died towards the end of prohibition (1933). Probably true.

After ratting to the police, Noodles flees New York.  May be true.  There is no record of him or the family in 1935.  There is a report that at one of the meetings with Sergio Leone and Gastaldi, Grey said that after fleeing New York, Grey went to Florida where he hid out for several years.  The mob found out where he was hiding and offered to cancel the contract on him if he did one last job for them.  This involved the murder of a member of congress.  Grey agreed, carried out the job and had to evade capture by driving his car into the river (going swimming in a car in the movie).  

Many of the events in The Hoods are based on true events but the fact that Noodles' involvement in them was portrayed inaccurately doesn't mean that Grey led a crime-free life.  Sergio Leone has said that many things in his life were kept secret and we are aware of involvements with the docks and dealing with mob bosses, under-bosses and buttons which are not hinted at in the book or in the movie.

 

« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 07:02:44 AM by chris » Logged
chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #140 on: June 16, 2013, 11:46:33 AM »

1) Where did you get this information about Hyman wife's family (i hope the possessive case's right)?

http://selsmanfamily.com/Malvina%20-%20Third%20Generation.html

2) You said  "Call Me Duke" is set in the Bronx; did you read it?

Yes.

3) we've finally determined that the dedication corresponds perfectly, no doubt about it.

I think you're right.

4) Harry Goldberg is (mostly, was) a very common name between jewish men; how could you be sure it's him?
and it's also difficult to believe since he'd been only 11 years in 1912 (Abe Schoenfeld's report).

I think Abe's report was after 1912. Abe was only offered the job in late 1912 and it would take him several months to compile the report.  It would have been dated between 1913 and 1917.  In any event Harry would have been 12 years old in 1913 and some say that 12 years old is the ideal age for a pickpocket. Harry Goldberg is a common name but few of them were pickpockets, the right age and associated with Lefty Louie.  But yes it's not guaranteed 100% that this Harry Goldberg is our man.

Rose Keefe spells her starker differently in her book about Jack Zelig but obviously Israel won't be the only person with this nickname.

5) i don't think the sole liberty he took was Max's death, there are many omissions and incongruities than his life (first of all: he's never been in Sing Sing, and he didn't write the book there); if really Max (premising it was actually his real name) was arrested in 1972 robbing a bank and that situation was broadcast in TV, could we try to find out who Max really was in order to trace back further details about Harry and his alleged gang?

Good luck with that. Some say Harry was 70, others say he was 73 when Max was arrested and we don't know Max's real name.

I think "sole liberty" needs to be read in conjunction with Harry's statement "I'll sort of blend factual happenings into fiction".  It's probable that Harry's time in Sing Sing has been exaggerated but I've not seen any evidence that he's never been in Sing Sing and didn't write the book there.

6) no comment about Joseph Crater's event; that's still today one of most considerable disappearances in the history of the USA, it's clearly liar that they were to dispose of his body and only 20 years later confessing it deliberately even describing the details; that's bullshit.

Probably

7) Harry wasn't from Odessa, maybe only Israel in his youth, right?

In the Hoods a rabbi told Noodles:  “In the ghettos of Odessa your father was called, 'Srulick the Shtarker.' He was a well-known horse thief and smuggler.”

Noodles responded: “My father was called 'Israel the strong and tough one' in Odessa?”

We have only Simeon's word that Harry came from Kiev. I am mindful that there are several things in Simeon's biographical sketch which don't sound right to me.   
 
 
 

Logged
drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8316

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #141 on: June 16, 2013, 03:37:28 PM »

As I've said in the past, I highly doubt even half the stories in the book are true. Maybe not even a quarter. Maybe Grey told Leone that everything in the book except is true the death of Max, but that is a load of hooey. I don't doubt the possibility that Grey may have been a gangster, maybe even associated with some of the big well-known gangsters of the era, but the specific stories he writes are pure fantasy, and in some cases ripped off of gangster movies, as Leone himself believed - with the exception of the childhood stuff, which seems real.

Some of the adult stories are so silly, even a Hollywood screenwriter wouldn't have the nerve to make up such nonsense. Like the story about the paper machine. And the one about the guy in the coffin, where they literally scared him to death. And the whole ludicrous episode of that casino in Atlantic City. Or how about the one where they are enforcing the strike and manage to knock out like 20 guys with the spiked whiskey. I laughed all the way through this book - I enjoyed it as I would enjoy a cartoon strip.

You may know Grey's real name and may wanna figure out his life details from that, but I wouldn't try tracing his life based on the stories in the book -- no friggin' way that stuff is anything other than some dude's imagination. Leone saw that this old dude was living in a world where he couldn't distinguish fantasy from reality, and that influenced his decision on how to structure OUATIA - about an old gangster returning to his neighborhood, and trying to make sense of his past, and where fantasy blends with reality.

Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #142 on: June 17, 2013, 03:28:41 AM »

1) I have yet to read Rose Keefe's book, it's in my amazon wishlist; do you own it?

Yes.

2) Maybe Max could be his real name.. Maximilian.. you're the beloved researching man, you could try to begin it and see where it leads you, we can never know. His name was Maximilian, he was Jewish, he was born presumably in Lower East Side (or Poland, since Leone named him Bercovicz, Polish Jew surname) and he was a thief, arrested in 1972 broadcast on tv.. he could probably appear in the database of Sing Sing inmates, between 20's and 50's; if he's existed.
Let's do this way: i remember you posted a record about Harry living in Bronx with a friend named Leo Rosenfeld, maybe he could be Max, or Patsy, or Cockeye; INVESTIGATE ON HIM

I did a search on Leo Rosenfeld once but didn't come up with anything significant.  Rose Keefe regularly writes books on these gangsters and via the Goodreads website, goodreads.com and rosekeefe.com, I did suggest to her once that she should have a look at Harry Grey/Goldberg.  For the present she's not acted on the suggestion.  If she were doing the research, she would approach Grey's relatives and friends, libraries and library assistants in New York, court records and newspapers such as The New York Times.  The internet is a useful tool but to make real progress there may be no shortcut to these methods.

3) Was Hyman from Odessa?

No. He was born in New York in 1908.

4) Kosher Nostra killers who wanted to kill him were: Mendy (Emmanuel Weiss), Trigger Mike (Michael Coppola) and Muscles (do you have an idea on who could be?). Then he mentions Salvy the Snake, heroin addict thug; who was him? All the guys should have their respective real-life counterparts...?

5) We could even try to inspect Dolores; Jewish girl, surname Gelly, she had a cafè in Delancey St, maybe she became a pretty well-known dancer in Broadway; same age as Noodles, approximately.

I agree with drinkanddestroy about parts of The Hoods.  For research purposes it may be best to ignore.  

Nevertheless there are undoubtedly true events similar to those described in the book.  The money making machine and drugged drinks are unrealistic and exaggerated but I have heard of other people describing similar but less exaggerated and more realistic events which may have actually happened.  Some say that Leone didn't like the drugged drinks episode with the strike enforcers and chose the baby switching scene instead.  However in the shooting script dated Jan 24 1982, Noodles is captured by contract killers and it was still Leone's intention to go with the idea of giving them drugged drinks so that Noodles could escape.

Drugged drinks (Mickey Finns): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Finn_(drugs)

Money making machines (Victor Lustig 1890 to 1947): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lustig

6) come on, Chris, you're a smart guy, be realist, for at least 99% he narrated lots of bullshit. Anyway, answering your question, i'm quite sure he's never been in Sing Sing because prison database doesn't show any Harry Goldberg/Grey imprisoned there, then even Ron Arons didn't find anything about him in Sing Sing, and he writes a book on that, of which a chapter right on Noodles.

I've not asked a question.  The Sing Sing database shows several Harry Goldbergs imprisoned there.  We've already established that there is no connection between the Dutch Goldberg mentioned in Ron Aron's book and Noodles.  If it's claimed that Harry spent 15 years in Sing Sing, from the records I've seen I think it unlikely that this relates to one single term of imprisonment.

  

« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 06:05:58 AM by chris » Logged
titoli
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8010



View Profile
« Reply #143 on: June 17, 2013, 05:28:35 AM »

I don't know if this can be useful or you have delved into already but anyway I'll throw it there. In the edition of the novel I have there's a copyright indicating Harry Grey as the owner. That means he still owned the rights to the novel in 1985. That also might mean that a search in the copyrights files (there's an office  like that over here) might be worth the effort.

Logged

titoli
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8010



View Profile
« Reply #144 on: June 18, 2013, 02:50:30 AM »

I've read the book and, as Leone said,  the first part is the best one, as the gangsters capers are probably invented or just as stupid as those devised for the movie. I wonder though if it has already discussed the fact that the discussion between the two brothers could have been an inspiration for the Tuco-Father Ramirez scene.

Logged

chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #145 on: June 18, 2013, 06:13:31 AM »

1) Then what details we have that Goldberg family came from Odessa and not from Kiev, apart the Rabbi's words in the book?

I've not seen proof that the Goldberg family came from Odessa or Kiev.  Harry's place of birth isn't my main interest.

2) What about trying with Dolores, Chris? we have name, surname, age of birth, possible occupation and eventual place of living (NY)..

As I've posted before, for research purposes it may be best to ignore the details in The Hoods.  But if you want to have a go, good luck.

Personally I think if you're serious about wanting to know more about Harry Goldberg, you would be better off trying to get access to the Abe Shoenfeld papers.  Abe wrote vignettes on 1,900 Jewish criminals in New York before and during the prohibition years.  One of these may be our guy.

Copies of his reports are held at the Central Archives for the History of the Jewish People in Jerusalem, Israel and several places in the U.S including:

American Jewish Historical Society
Center for Jewish History
15 West 16th Street
New York, NY 10011 Tel: 212-294-6160

http://www.ajhs.org

3) I got Louis Schomberg isn't Noodles, but i didn't know Sing Sing database provided many Harry Goldberg.. could you show it to me? Does it also gives the duration and the annual dates of the imprisonment?

When he compiled his Sing Sing database, Ron Arons was looking for one of his relatives. It's not complete, it's not indexed properly and there's the problem of aliases and prisoners not giving their correct name.

One example is Harry Goldberg sentenced on Feb 6 1913.

He is listed in Ron's database as Harry Goldberg but his true name is Chaim Gersch Schechtman.


Harry Goldberg aka Meyer Goldberg


Harry Goldberg aka Joseph Harris aka Hyman Rosenberg


Likewise our Harry could have been imprisoned in Sing Sing and in Ron's database under an alias.

We don't know what this alias might have been but for instance there are almost 70 Goldbergs in Ron's database.


Prisoners in the database listed as Harry Goldberg:

Harry Goldberg
1920s, Burglary, incarcerated 5 times

Harry Goldberg
1920s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Harry Goldberg
1910s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Harry Goldberg
1900s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 2 times

Harry Goldberg
1900s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

Harry Goldberg
1900s, Burglary, incarcerated 2 times


Prisoners in the database listed as Goldberg:

Max Goldberg
1940s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Herbert Goldberg
1940s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Max Goldberg
1930s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Abraham Goldberg
1930s, Homicide, incarcerated 1 time

Isidore Goldberg
1930s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Hyman Goldberg
1930s, Homicide, incarcerated 1 time

Jack Goldberg
1930s, Assault, incarcerated 1 time

Isidore Goldberg
1930s, Robbery, incarcerated 1 time

Philip Goldberg
1930s, Arson, incarcerated 1 time

Aaron Goldberg
1930s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

David Goldberg
1930s, Weapon Violation, incarcerated 2 times

Charles Goldberg
1930s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

Joseph Goldberg
1930s, Homicide, incarcerated 1 time

Nathaniel Goldberg
1920s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Herman Goldberg
1920s, Abandonment, incarcerated 1 time

Henry Goldberg
1920s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Herman Goldberg
1920s, Stolen Property, incarcerated 1 time

Herman Goldberg
1920s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 2 times

Meyer Goldberg
1920s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

Jack Goldberg
1920s, Burglary, incarcerated 2 times

Louis Goldberg
1920s, Assault, incarcerated 1 time

Philip Goldberger
1920s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

Harry Goldberg
1920s, Burglary, incarcerated 5 times

Sidney Goldberg
1920s, Robbery, incarcerated 1 time

Sam Goldberg
1920s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Charles Goldberg
1920s, Burglary, incarcerated 2 times

Milton Goldberg
1920s, Robbery, incarcerated 1 time

Sam Goldberg
1920s, Robbery, incarcerated 1 time

Abraham Goldberg
1920s, Stolen Property, incarcerated 2 times

Max Goldberg
1920s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

Meyer Goldberg
1920s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Charles Goldberg
1920s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Henry Goldberg
1920s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

Morris Goldberg
1920s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

William Goldberg
1920s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Harry Goldberg
1920s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Joseph Goldberg
1920s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Joseph Goldberg
1910s, Burglary, incarcerated 2 times

Harry Goldberg
1910s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Max Goldberg
1910s, Arson, incarcerated 1 time

Samuel Goldberg
1910s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Harry Goldberg
1910s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Henry Goldberg
1910s, Counterfeit/Forgery, incarcerated 1 time

Max Goldberg
1910s, Stolen Property, incarcerated 1 time

Henry Goldberg
1910s, Homicide, incarcerated 1 time

Hyman Goldberg
1910s, Poss.Burg.Inst, incarcerated 1 time

Benjamin Goldberg
1910s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

Samuel Goldberg
1910s, Homicide, incarcerated 1 time

Frank Goldberg
1910s, Burglary, incarcerated 3 times

Joseph Goldberg
1910s, Burglary, incarcerated 6 times

Hyman Goldberg
1910s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

Benjamin Goldberg
1910s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Joseph Goldberg
1900s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Samuel Goldberg
1900s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 2 times

Joseph Goldberg
1900s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Charles Goldberg
1900s, Burglary, incarcerated 4 times

Julius Goldberg
1900s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 2 times

Harry Goldberg
1900s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 2 times

Harry Goldberg
1900s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

Abraham Goldberg
1900s, Kidnap/Abduct, incarcerated 1 time

Isidore Goldberg
1900s, Burglary, incarcerated 3 times

Harry Goldberg
1900s, Burglary, incarcerated 2 times

Simon Goldberg
1890s, Kidnap/Abduct, incarcerated 1 time

Max Goldberg
1890s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

Nathan Goldberg
1890s, Arson, incarcerated 1 time

Louis Goldberg
1890s, Stolen Property, incarcerated 1 time

Jacob Goldberg
1890s, Bigamy, incarcerated 1 time

Samuel Goldberg
1890s, Grand Larceny, incarcerated 1 time

Adolph Goldberg
1880s, Burglary, incarcerated 1 time

It might be ironic if Harry had used the alias Aaron or Hyman.

http://www.ronarons.com/advanced_search.php

  

« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 07:02:10 AM by chris » Logged
chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #146 on: June 19, 2013, 02:13:03 AM »

I don't think Ron's database is the way forward.  I've already mentioned the methods used by Rose Keefe and the Abe Shoenfeld reports.  In the absence of progress on such suggestions, we may as well go back to my earlier post:

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think we'll see any further significant posts on Harry Grey anytime soon.

 

Logged
chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #147 on: June 22, 2013, 05:22:49 AM »

1) what about trying with Dolores Gelly?..

2) Haven't Simeon answered anymore?

3) I don't know why, but it's kind of a special artistic and criminal tradition/legend  which regards in particular Odessa and Ukranian Jews more than other Jews from the world; some of the most notorious criminals actually are from Odessa (or their family are) or otherwise from Ukraine, they have something in their genetic lineage: Ludwig Fainberg (Odessa), Bugsy Siegel (Letychiv, Ukraine), Liev Schreiber (Ukr), Louis Kid Kaplan (Kiev), Dustin Hoffman (Ukr), Dustin Hoffman (Ukr), Sydney Pollack (Ukr), and Steven Spielberg, Alan Arkin, PROBABLY Nathan Kaplan (alis Kid Dropper, it even appears in The Hoods), Baal Shem Tov, Sholem Aleichem, Isaak Babel, mobster Gurrah Shapiro (Odessa), Leonid Minin (Odessa), Mickey Cohen, Yossele Rosenblatt (mentioned in The Hoods), Semion Mogilevich (RUSSIAN MAFIA LEADER), Dimitry Salita, David Berman (mobster from Odessa), George Gershwin (Odessa), Mishna Yaponchik (Odessa), MY GOD BOB DYLAN (Odessa), Armie Hammer's great-great-grandfather (Odessa), Ben Bernanke's grandfather (Ukr), Vladimir Horovitz (Odessa), Nathan Milstein (Odessa), Leonid Stein, Darren Aronofsky, Leone Ginzburg, Viktor Bout (Tajik but of Ukrainian origins).. even Yuri Orlov (played by Nicholas Cage in Lord of War) was born in Odessa and moved into Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, also know as LITTLE ODESSA because of the large Russian speaking Jewish community.. and even Noodles Cheesy And Sylvester Stallone's maternal great-grandparents was from Odessa, in fact his mother's surname is Labofish.. and so many other Jews i left out or forgot.

... without considering that the greatest boxers in the world are Klitschko brothers, from Kiev (NOT JEWISH), and best fighter in MMA history is Fedor Emelianenko, Ukrainian (NOT JEW).. there's a special common belonging which features Ukrainian Jews and non.. what do you think?


4) what we know almost certainly is Noodles was Jewish, was Ukranian, and he very likely came from Moldavanka, and he read for sure "The Odessa Tales" by Isaak Babel (i read that too, it's a historical witness so emotional, detailed and well described; he narrated even about Mishna Yaponchik, it's not very famous, you could not know him, but let's inquire about him, he's a very newsworthy personality) and also probably identified his father with Mishna through Rabbi's words, which makes the testimony more authentic, for the reader's eyes); do you agree with my assumption?

Regarding Dolores, some years ago, before we knew much about Harry Goldberg, I did searches on all the main characters in the Hoods and comparisons with real life gangsters and events.  It was mostly a waste of time.  As I've posted before, for research purposes, it would be best to ignore details in The Hoods.  That is not to say that I think that Harry led a totally crime free life.

I've certainly not heard anything from Simeon.

Regarding Harry's place of birth, census records show it as Russia which frankly is good enough for me.

In any event - mystery, ambiguity and unanswered questions are more in keeping with Leone's vision and the style of his film.

  

« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 05:30:02 AM by chris » Logged
chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #148 on: March 27, 2014, 01:56:27 PM »

I've not seen any further significant items.

Gelly isn't a common name and I wondered if Harry had disguised it a bit.  He has the habit of adding ...y and ...ie to people he liked.  Max becomes Maxie, Dominick becomes Dommie etc.

The book mentions a Gelly's Candy Store and I noticed a Geller's Candy Store.  I exchanged a few emails with one of the Gellers but she was certain that there was no connection.

I don't expect to learn anything new in the near future but when the 1945 census is available, in three to four years time, I'll have another look.

 

Logged
drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8316

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #149 on: March 27, 2014, 05:03:47 PM »


Gelly isn't a common name and I wondered if Harry had disguised it a bit.  He has the habit of adding ...y and ...ie to people he liked.  Max becomes Maxie, Dominick becomes Dommie etc.

The book mentions a Gelly's Candy Store and I noticed a Geller's Candy Store.  I exchanged a few emails with one of the Gellers but she was certain that there was no connection.

 

it's very common to have a "y" or "ie" added to first names, e.g., John becomes Johnny or Johnnie, Jack becomes Jackie, etc. But that is not so for last names. Gelly is a real Jewish last name; of course I don't know whether or not there was a real place "Gelly's candy store," but the fact that "y" and "ie" is added to first names does not mean that it's added to last names.



Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Visit FISTFUL-OF-LEONE.COM

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.041 seconds with 19 queries.