No Confusion about Sean or John

[Skullchrist]

If you watch the bonus disk for DYS it explains almost everything.  Believe me I had some serious questions and didn't really expect the bonus disk to offer much relief but I was pleasantly surprised.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

[Tucumcari Bound]

If you watch the bonus disk for DYS it explains almost everything.  Believe me I had some serious questions and didn't really expect the bonus disk to offer much relief but I was pleasantly surprised.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

Everyone here who owns the new special edition disc has watched the special features for sure. I've watched them. Thanks though Skullchrist. Welcome to the boards!

[Noodles_SlowStir]

I thought the special features and featurettes on the disc were great.  Enjoyed the Frayling piece and the locations feature.  I did like the Restoration short but I found I disagreed on some of the analysis by Kirk.  I don't buy into his analysis of the Ireland flashbacks and the menage a trois.  I was kind of surprised they included that opinion on the disc without alternate viewpoints.  It seemed to be his featurette and he states his interpretation of those segments.

[The Peacemaker]

I was kind of surprised they included that opinion on the disc without alternate viewpoints.  It seemed to be his featurette and he states his interpretation of those segments.

Exactly.

And everyone on imdb is saying that this guy is Frayling and he answers all the questions. It was his interpretation, not the definite answers, but no one listens to me on imdb. Some people can be very single-minded.

[Noodles_SlowStir]

I was really surprised that it was on there without a counterpoint.  If I was involved in the production of the disc I would of been concerned with the inclusion of that personal interpretation.  I suppose it would of been difficult to provide a counterpoint within that feature.  It seemed to be Kirk's segment on the disc.  Maybe there should of been more discussion in another segment on the special features.   When I watched it the first time, I could see that people would possibly embrace that as the "truth".  Ridiculous.

[dave jenkins]

I don't think it's Kirk's point of view that is being put over, I think it's Glenn Erickson's. Kirk is the one being interviewed, but Erickson is the guy behind the documentary.

And Erickson, plugged in as he is (he's DVDSavant), is just one guy with a guy's opinion. It's not an opinion that most of us share, because the evidence for it is not in the film.

[Noodles_SlowStir]

Thanks Dave.  I was confusing the Restoration with the Sorting Out The Versions features.  You're absolutely right.  The feature and viewpoint was that of Glenn Erickson.  He provides the interpretation on the flashbacks.  I'm definitely in agreement....I don't share his interpretation.  The disc does have the disclaimer about commentary viewpoints...wish that there had been some counterpoint to Erickson on that perspective.   

[dave jenkins]

I just looked at the restoration doc again, and Kirk, although he isn't explicit about it, sounds like he agrees with Erickson. At any rate, he claims that the final flashback operates like other Leone flashback, in that it gives new info that twists our understanding of the characters. For my part, I think Erickson and Kirk are reading too much into things. The only "new info" I take from the final flashback is that Mallory and Nolan and the girl were in a ménage à trois , and that they were very happy.

[Noodles_SlowStir]

I'll have to go back and watch each one again.  You're right on when you corrected me.  It was definitely Erickson's feature, Sorting Out The Versions, that I was referring to and that I disagreed with from the very first time I saw it.  The feature isn't bad, it's just that one point that I totally disagree with.  I'm with you on the smile.  I think they were involved in a menage a trois, and Sean's smile at the end was a smile of contentment.  Then it disolves slowly to the present and what happens at the end of the picture.

[dave jenkins]

You see things as I do. I guess you're a genius.

[Skullchrist]

 I think they were involved in a menage a trois, and Sean's smile at the end was a smile of contentment.  

Hmm.  I know I can't be alone in this evaluation, as it was mentioned on the bonus disk, but I believe John murdered Sean because he ultimately wanted the girl for himself.

Maybe I have a darker nature, lol, but John's smile in the last flashback was extremely sinister.  And Sean was smiling right before John shot him because he didn't know that John had actually turned him in.

[Noodles_SlowStir]

Posted by: dave jenkins
You see things as I do. I guess you're a genius.

   Drag yourself down to my level at your own risk.  

I've been thinking about the flashbacks quite a bit.  I guess still smoothing out some of the rough edges of my thoughts.  The Sean character I think is quite complex.  There's a cycle of character definition between Sean, Nolan, Juan and Villega.  In his mind, Sean at times is betrayed and betrayer.  It's like a lot of the experiences and points of view of all those characters are summarized within the one character. I've read the threads on the Sean name issue and the Warbeck death subject and have been trying to reconcile everything.  I think one of the things about the menage a trois that is a really nice plot point is that Leone is possibly able to depict the conflict within one individual about revolution.  A lot of times the classic conflict about a revolutionary depicted in film and novels, is not being able to integrate the personal with the political.  I'm thinking the menage a trois could be a device to show that particular conflict in Sean.  In the earlier flashbacks, Sean is kissing the woman...he almost never wants to let go.  Perhaps he's embracing the personal.  In the last flashback, again, he's kissing her and almost ignoring Nolan as he's trying to cut in and get his share of affection and kisses.  Nolan was shown as the more activist of the two characters.  We saw Sean observe him as he was distributing revolutionary literature.  Nolan and Sean are the same but refracted a little differently.  In the pub, when Nolan informs on Sean, Sean symbolically is watching everything in a mirror.  He's perhaps watching his own revolutionary side....failing to live up to his political ideals.  If one were to think this way, it really wouldn't be necessary for Nolan to have the first name of Sean....symbolically he is Sean....he's a part of Sean.  While Sean is near death, for me the significance of the final flashback is that it reveals the menage a trois.  Also it's showing how Sean is trying to find peace before death.  He's trying reconcile the personal and political conflict within himself.  As a result, he would smile when Nolan would kiss the woman.  He's at peace and whole with the conflicts within himself.

Hmm.  I know I can't be alone in this evaluation, as it was mentioned on the bonus disk, but I believe John murdered Sean because he ultimately wanted the girl for himself.

Maybe I have a darker nature, lol, but John's smile in the last flashback was extremely sinister.  And Sean was smiling right before John shot him because he didn't know that John had actually turned him in.

It's open to interpretation.  I definitely don't see the smile as sinister.  There's very little to support such a view.

[Skullchrist]

It's open to interpretation.  I definitely don't see the smile as sinister.  There's very little to support such a view.

As someone mentioned, the music changes to a more harmonious and romantic nature when the girl and Sean embrace and then it cuts to John's face looking on and you can see his face slowly twist towards anger and hatred because she shrugged off his advances to the one she truly loves.

Why is everyone calling him Sean when even in the Irish paper he is referred to as John Mallory?

[dave jenkins]

These questions are addressed in other threads. This is a good place to start: http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1271.0
Be sure to follow the links that Juan Miranda makes to yet other threads on this topic.

[The Peacemaker]

Why is everyone calling him Sean when even in the Irish paper he is referred to as John Mallory?

Simple common sense; why would an Irish newspaper post a reward for an IRA member?

Most likely it was a pro-British newspaper and used the anglicized version of Sean, which is John.