Sergio Leone Web Board
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 11, 2017, 06:27:19 AM
Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
News:


+  Sergio Leone Web Board
|-+  Films of Sergio Leone
| |-+  Other Films (Moderators: cigar joe, moviesceleton, Dust Devil)
| | |-+  The Assassination of Jesse James vs. The Proposition
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Poll
Question: Which film do you prefer?
The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford   -5 (83.3%)
The Proposition   -1 (16.7%)
Total Voters: 4

Author Topic: The Assassination of Jesse James vs. The Proposition  (Read 4840 times)
Tucumcari Bound
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5814



View Profile
« on: February 11, 2008, 10:56:02 AM »




Logged



"This train'll stop at Tucumbari."
Whalestoe
Guest
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2008, 01:55:35 PM »





Jesse James hands down. Cave's soundtrack is far superior in The Assassination... then it is in The Proposition.

Logged
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12770


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2008, 04:09:52 PM »

I go the other way, I'd rather have myth, you can be more creative and stylish, where as with a narrative history you have to stay with the facts, no matter how unpleasant they be.

Though I like both films I'll probably be watching the myth more often.

Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
Tucumcari Bound
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5814



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2008, 05:19:12 PM »

I go the other way, I'd rather have myth, you can be more creative and stylish, where as with a narrative history you have to stay with the facts, no matter how unpleasant they be.

Though I like both films I'll probably be watching the myth more often.

What I love about Jesse James is that they cover the myth of Jesse James quite frequently. For example, in the narration, they mention the blinking eyes condition of Jesse James, yet when they show the camera on Brad Pitt as Jesse, he's not blinking. I thought that was a brilliant touch.

Logged



"This train'll stop at Tucumbari."
dave jenkins
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13702

"One banana, two banana, three banana, four...."


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2008, 11:03:26 PM »

What I love about Jesse James is that they cover the myth of Jesse James quite frequently. For example, in the narration, they mention the blinking eyes condition of Jesse James, yet when they show the camera on Brad Pitt as Jesse, he's not blinking. I thought that was a brilliant touch.
The more likely explanation is that Brad Pitt can't act and blink at the same time.

Logged


That's what you get, Drink, for being such an annoying Melville fanboy.
Whalestoe
Guest
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2008, 01:27:38 AM »

The more likely explanation is that Brad Pitt can't act and blink at the same time.

Good one, DJ, but no... the point is Jesse James had a ton of legend and hype around him to make him seem larger than life, much of which wasn't tree.

Logged
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12770


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2008, 06:50:12 AM »

"Good one, DJ, but no... the point is Jesse James had a ton of legend and hype around him to make him seem larger than life, much of which wasn't true."

They did make a point to seperate the myth from the man, especially showing the dime novels about Jesse and the sort of hero worship that developed in the young Bob Ford. This was also done to a small extent in "Unforgiven" with the Richard Harris sequence with his traveling biographer. 

What I'm saying is that once you deal with historical figures in a film or novel you have a factual blueprint underiding the story. Now the creative artist can choose & pick which events to use and which to leave out and that choice will determine the story that is depicted. You can emphasise Jessie's family life and his realations with his friends & relatives and contrast that with the methodical Pinkertons and come up with a sympathetic story. You can decide to emphasize Jesse's early career as a guerilla with "Bloody Bill Anderson" and come up with an entierly different take.

I happend to watch "Kansas Raiders" the other day with Audie Murphy as Jesse and it portays him as a good boy gone bad.

You should see the continuing controversy between "Tombstone" and "Wyatt Earp"  and their respective depictions of the OK Corral Gunfight over which is more accurate from the various eye witness accounts.

One surprize in "Assassination..." was the way Frank James was just dropped out of the film (the narrative stated that he was in Maine), I was kind of interested in what his reaction and subsequent actions were and it was just a thread left hanging, (prehaps that whole segment was cut, it may be in the novel), but if my brother was assassinated I would be looking for some settling of accounts, no? Instead we just got the Bob Ford side of the aftermath.


« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 08:21:19 AM by cigar joe » Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
Whalestoe
Guest
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 09:28:06 AM »

"Good one, DJ, but no... the point is Jesse James had a ton of legend and hype around him to make him seem larger than life, much of which wasn't true."

They did make a point to seperate the myth from the man, especially showing the dime novels about Jesse and the sort of hero worship that developed in the young Bob Ford. This was also done to a small extent in "Unforgiven" with the Richard Harris sequence with his traveling biographer. 

What I'm saying is that once you deal with historical figures in a film or novel you have a factual blueprint underiding the story. Now the creative artist can choose & pick which events to use and which to leave out and that choice will determine the story that is depicted. You can emphasise Jessie's family life and his realations with his friends & relatives and contrast that with the methodical Pinkertons and come up with a sympathetic story. You can decide to emphasize Jesse's early career as a guerilla with "Bloody Bill Anderson" and come up with an entierly different take.

I happend to watch "Kansas Raiders" the other day with Audie Murphy as Jesse and it portays him as a good boy gone bad.

You should see the continuing controversy between "Tombstone" and "Wyatt Earp"  and their respective depictions of the OK Corral Gunfight over which is more accurate from the various eye witness accounts.

One surprize in "Assassination..." was the way Frank James was just dropped out of the film (the narrative stated that he was in Maine), I was kind of interested in what his reaction and subsequent actions were and it was just a thread left hanging, (prehaps that whole segment was cut, it may be in the novel), but if my brother was assassinated I would be looking for some settling of accounts, no? Instead we just got the Bob Ford side of the aftermath.



When Frank James leaves in the movie, it is exactly when he leaves in the novel. From that point we never hear from him again until after Jesse's death in which it is just a passing comment made by the author.

Logged
dave jenkins
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13702

"One banana, two banana, three banana, four...."


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2008, 10:28:45 AM »

One surprize in "Assassination..." was the way Frank James was just dropped out of the film (the narrative stated that he was in Maine), I was kind of interested in what his reaction and subsequent actions were and it was just a thread left hanging, (prehaps that whole segment was cut, it may be in the novel), but if my brother was assassinated I would be looking for some settling of accounts, no? Instead we just got the Bob Ford side of the aftermath.
Not sure why this is a surprise. The title tells you what the focus is on. They couldn't wrap up every thread, and anyway, Frank soon surrendered, so his outlaw days (the interesting part of his life) were over. Here's some info from wikipedia (for what it's worth):

Quote
Five months after the murder of his brother Jesse in 1882, Frank boarded a train to Jefferson City, Missouri, where he had an appointment with the governor in the state capitol. Placing his holster in Governor Crittenden's hands, he explained,

    "I have been hunted for twenty-one years, have literally lived in the saddle, have never known a day of perfect peace. It was one long, anxious, inexorable, eternal vigil." He then ended his statement by saying, "Governor, I haven't let another man touch my gun since 1861."

Accounts say that Frank surrendered with the understanding that he would not be extradited to Northfield, Minnesota.

Frank was tried for only two of the robberies/murders one in Gallatin, Missouri for the July 15, 1881 robbery of the Rock Island Line train at Winston, Missouri in which the train engineer and a passenger were killed and other trial was in Huntsville, Alabama for the March 11, 1881 robbery of a United States Army Corps of Engineers payroll at Muscle Shoals, Alabama. Missouri General Joe Shelby testified on his behalf in the Missouri trial, and the court was overwhelmed as the two old Confederate comrades embraced. No Missouri jury would have sentenced James after that demonstration. He was acquitted in Alabama as well. Afterwards, Missouri accepted legal jurisdiction over him for other charges but they never came to trial. The Missouri political establishment also kept him from being extradited to Minnesota to be tried in connection with the Northfield Raid.

I guess you could do a movie called The Trial and Conviction of Frank James By the State of Missouri (which might actually be kind of interesting) but that would be a whole nother thing . . . .

Logged


That's what you get, Drink, for being such an annoying Melville fanboy.
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12770


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2008, 03:37:55 PM »

I guess there was a funeral sequence shot in the film that was cut, I've read, was that in the novel?

Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
Whalestoe
Guest
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2008, 05:04:20 PM »

I guess there was a funeral sequence shot in the film that was cut, I've read, was that in the novel?

There might have been something with his mother. Actually, I believe there was. But there was A LOT to do with his mother in the novel, and his past (early robberies and his courting of Zee James). I recommend the novel, CJ.

Logged
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12770


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2008, 06:11:38 PM »

Tthe end of the original gang "ballets de mort" The Northfield Minnesota Raid from "The Long Riders"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCk4OhG62VA

Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12770


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2008, 09:59:58 PM »

"I guess you could do a movie called The Trial and Conviction of Frank James By the State of Missouri (which might actually be kind of interesting) but that would be a whole nother thing . . . ."

I think Henry Fonda coverd that in "The Return of Frank James"  Afro

Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
dave jenkins
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13702

"One banana, two banana, three banana, four...."


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2008, 06:24:52 PM »

Not very authentic, though, was it? I mean . . . with Gene Tierney as a love interest?

Logged


That's what you get, Drink, for being such an annoying Melville fanboy.
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12770


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2008, 06:43:20 PM »

Not very authentic, though, was it? I mean . . . with Gene Tierney as a love interest?

Hell no, lol

Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Visit FISTFUL-OF-LEONE.COM

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.033 seconds with 22 queries.