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Kurug3n
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« on: July 22, 2007, 10:26:15 PM »

anyone else feel the same way?

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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2007, 11:21:31 PM »

I found them interesting. I always enjoy Christopher Frayling's take on each of these films. He talked lengthly about Duck, You Sucker on the Special Features so I can't complain really.

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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2007, 11:22:56 PM »

anyone else feel the same way?


Haven't seen them in over a year but I do remember them trying to beat that "Nolan's real name is Sean and he was turned in by Mallory out of jealousy" theory into your head a lot.

That was my only complaint then.

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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2007, 09:30:02 AM »


Haven't seen them in over a year but I do remember them trying to beat that "Nolan's real name is Sean and he was turned in by Mallory out of jealousy" theory into your head a lot.

That was my only complaint then.

Firecracker, I'll have to disagree about your complaint. The more I look into it, and after I watched the special features here, I'll have to say that Mallory's name is indeed John. No questions. There is many hints in the film that back it up. The Sean, Sean, Sean references with the score are in my opinion in reference to John's friend who he is haunted by for killing. You can clearly see he's bothered by what happened with his friend in the past throughout the whole film. Also, the Ireland Newspaper clearly says that his name is John. I dunno, it's just what I think.


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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2007, 12:09:21 PM »

FC thinks it's John too.


He doesn't buy the " Mallory turning Nolan in to the Brits to be tortured out of jealousy of the girl " theory which I think is bullsh*t too.

People read too much into these things.

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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2007, 12:15:34 PM »

FC thinks it's John too.


He doesn't buy the " Mallory turning Nolan in to the Brits to be tortured out of jealousy of the girl " theory which I think is bullsh*t too.

People read too much into these things.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I don't buy that part either. I thought FC thought his name was SEAN. I got it mixed up. Thanks for clearing that up my friend!

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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2007, 01:44:31 PM »

There is no doubt that Coburn's character is named John. The question is whether he is AKA "Sean." This has been debated to death on this board, but since no one ever goes back and reads old threads anymore, I'll reprise this portion of an old post having to do with the way the "Sean, Sean, Sean" music is used:

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The crucial fact regarding this matter is the lyric added to the music by Carla Leone: "Sean, Sean, Sean." If we did not have SL's other movies, and had only DYS to go by, we might possibly be tempted to imagine that these words refer to the dead friend. But we do have the other movies, and so know that Leone NEVER used music in this way. By the time of OUATITW, SL (in collaboration with Morricone, natch) had developed a fairly consistent approach to film scoring, one that borrowed from operatic techniques. Specifically, he assigned leitmotifs to each of the major characters in his Once Upon a Time trilogy. This is easily seen in OUATITW, where Jill, Cheyenne, and even Morton get their own themes. Harmonica and Frank share a theme, or rather, both are identified by complementary phrases that combine to form a single theme that is only revealed in its entirety at the final gundown. In DYS the two main characters certainly get their themes: Juan gets the one that is sometimes called (by Frayling, for example) "The March of the Beggars." The character played by Coburn gets the "Sean, Sean, Sean" theme. That is HIS theme, and it always plays when he is present on screen or just about to appear (there are two exceptions, the first at the very beginning of the film where the motif serves as foreshadowing, the second at the end after the explosion as a kind of memorial for the dearly departed). This theme is not restricted to thoughts of Ireland, or of the dead friend. The music is always with Coburn whatever he is doing or thinking. It is, in fact, an element of his character.

So I find it unlikely that a dead character who we only see in flashback is the focus of one of the two major musical motifs of the picture. It seems more logical that the motif should be seen as applying to Coburn, and that it is referring to him by name.

In fact, Nolan might be a "Sean" also, but that would be in addition to Mallory. There is an elegant symmetry to such a notion, one that works well with the "Johnny and Johnny" idea. Thus was born the "My 3 Seans" conceit (also written up on another post).

Finally, there is warrant for the "Sean becomes John" idea in the fact that John Ford may have made such a transformation himself, going from Sean Feeny to John Ford (although this tale may be apocryphal). On this view, SL, who knew something of Ford and his background, was making a tribute to Ford by imagining a character who was both Sean and John.


« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 06:03:46 PM by dave jenkins » Logged


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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2007, 01:59:28 PM »

Come on jenkins, I read old posts quite frequently!

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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2007, 02:00:47 PM »

Yes Sean and John can be viewed as variations on the same name
e.g. Bob/Robert;  Richard/Dick;  Charlie/Chuck ; James/Jim

etc.

He's Sean dammit!
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2007, 02:39:01 PM »

Yes Sean and John can be viewed as variations on the same name
e.g. Bob/Robert;  Richard/Dick;  Charlie/Chuck ; James/Jim

etc.

He's Sean dammit!
Smiley

No, he's John for sure.  Wink

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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2007, 02:55:16 PM »

Same thing.

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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2007, 06:11:29 PM »

I think I'm going to hang myself now... Roll Eyes

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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2007, 04:25:05 PM »

Firecracker, I'll have to disagree about your complaint. The more I look into it, and after I watched the special features here, I'll have to say that Mallory's name is indeed John. No questions. There is many hints in the film that back it up. The Sean, Sean, Sean references with the score are in my opinion in reference to John's friend who he is haunted by for killing. You can clearly see he's bothered by what happened with his friend in the past throughout the whole film. Also, the Ireland Newspaper clearly says that his name is John. I dunno, it's just what I think.





I don't have a problem with the theory but I didn't appreciate Frayling making it out to be gospel on the dvd.

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