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titoli
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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2007, 12:56:13 PM »

I think Warlock is american western at his best. Saw it again the other day. A sublime trio of actors. A story with some unexpected trait of sadism. I don't think FOD excels it. To choose between the two would be a hard call. And I'm not referring to B-movies. I thought I was clear on that when I proposed Shane.
 

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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2007, 02:08:15 PM »

Sounds good to me do either Shane (which actually, with Billy D. Wilde Jr and baby Jesus both a bit obnoxious, that may be the one to go with) Or Warlock. Afro

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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2007, 03:16:31 PM »

Warlock was a favorite of SL's, so it would be apposite. Interesting, titoli, that you like it too. It's nobody's fave over here. What do the descendants of Romulus see in it?

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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2007, 03:54:19 PM »

I don't think my explanations will be enough to make the descendants of barbarians change their respectable opinion.

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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2007, 09:40:47 PM »

 Grin I'm not looking for an argument, I just want to know how others see things.

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titoli
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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2007, 02:42:21 AM »

Give yours, in the meantime.

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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2007, 04:47:34 AM »

I would think you'd really want a typical low budget oater with no big name stars against low budget AFOD which also had at that time no big name stars.

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titoli
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« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2007, 06:26:57 AM »

No, because that was the kind of western that big time Hollywood and Leone both dodged: but in a different way.

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« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2007, 08:58:04 AM »

Give yours, in the meantime.
Well, there are some good things about Warlock, certainly. The situation is interesting: you have more than just the champion hired to oppose the bad guys, you have the town suspicious of the champion, which eventually leads to a 3-way confrontation. Fonda and Widmark are very good (I'm not a big fan of Quinn). I don't like the two love interests: again, this violates Leone Rule #1 (twice!)and wastes a lot of time. Also, the good guys end up having things too easy, especially when DeForest (Bones McCoy) Kelly unaccountably decides there has to be a clean game and makes himself the referee. At that point all the tension goes out of the plot.

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« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2007, 12:52:51 PM »

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The situation is interesting: you have more than just the champion hired to oppose the bad guys, you have the town suspicious of the champion, which eventually leads to a 3-way confrontation.

Well, I think you have more than that: Fonda and Quinn are two exploiters, who have no interest in the establishing of the law if not as a way to a fast buck. In fact, as they become the representants of law and order, at the same time they step up on whoring and gambling into town. Their past is, to say the least, shady (Quinn was also a pimp, apart from being a cool-blooded assassin).

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I don't like the two love interests: again, this violates Leone Rule #1 (twice!)and wastes a lot of time.

Maybe Fonda love's interest, though that makes Fonda final decision all the more poignant. But the other girl in the picture is basic in many occasions to the development of the action and to shed light on Quinn's background. What I find dubious is the casting. Was it possible that there weren't younger and prettier girls at hand? Now I understand that they had to take actresses from Rome (Mangano, Loren, Lollobrigida. Yes, I know, Magnani as well, but for different reasons).

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Also, the good guys end up having things too easy, especially when DeForest (Bones McCoy) Kelly unaccountably decides there has to be a clean game and makes himself the referee. At that point all the tension goes out of the plot.

Yes but at that point the movie's over. De Forest had his life saved  by the law (that time was Fonda) and so he feels he owes. I do not find that unaccountable. Also he saved Widmark's hand before, so if there's anything unaccountable it should be his behaviour then and successively when he informs Widmark on the dirty gambit prepared for him. But we were led to believe there was some special relationship between the two, as he was the one who led or received Widmark when he went to give the warning not to come into town to the ranch. 

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« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2007, 03:49:22 PM »

Well, I think you have more than that: Fonda and Quinn are two exploiters, who have no interest in the establishing of the law if not as a way to a fast buck. In fact, as they become the representants of law and order, at the same time they step up on whoring and gambling into town. Their past is, to say the least, shady (Quinn was also a pimp, apart from being a cool-blooded assassin).
Quinn is all you say, but not Fonda. The film is at pains to show how different the men are (Fonda seems intent on giving his clients value for money), also the fact that Quinn has consistently deceived his friend over the years. In fact, Quinn has been playing Fonda, apparently because he's an emotional as well as a physical cripple who sees friendship as just another con. It's when Fonda discovers the true state of affairs that he breaks with him, precipitating the catastrophe. 

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« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2007, 04:05:12 AM »

As much as Fonda is different from Quinn, he connives with him about sucking money from the towns who hire them by gambling and whoring. Also, Fonda commits the most appalling action when he kicks the crutch from under the blathering cripple. I think these actions disqualify him as typical american hero.  And the same can be said about Widmark, about whom we know what he did in the past, taking part in the massacre of the mexicans. Nobody's perfect in that movie. The difference lies in who decides to (partially or completely) redeem himself and who doesn't.

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« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2007, 10:26:47 AM »

I don't know where you get that "whoring," it's not in the movie I've seen. Certainly they bring gambling to the town, because, as Fonda says, the money the town pays for his legitimate services hardly pays for his ammunition. As far as kicking the cripple goes, Fonda only does that after he's been forced to shoot Quinn, and after the cripple (who's a town father) rides him one time too many. He's had to kill his friend and then been provoked. It's not like he knocked the guy down in cold blood. This makes him a new kind of American hero? Perhaps. But I'd want to take another look at Jimmy Stewart in those Anthony Mann Westerns.

And the idea of a hero redeeming himself (partially or completely) is a staple of American Westerns. Angel and the Badman immediately comes to mind. Even Shane, we infer, has done some bad things prior to his arrival. Maybe part of his motivation for helping Jean Arthur and her family is that she reminds him of someone ("and there was nobody there to help"), and that he is expiating past transgressions by throwing in with the sheep men.

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« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2007, 01:13:34 PM »

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I don't know where you get that "whoring," it's not in the movie I've seen.

Quinn, on the staircase, says to a saloon girl to go to work instead of stick to him. And he's been a pimp in the past.

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As far as kicking the cripple goes, Fonda only does that after he's been forced to shoot Quinn, and after the cripple (who's a town father) rides him one time too many. He's had to kill his friend and then been provoked. It's not like he knocked the guy down in cold blood. This makes him a new kind of American hero? Perhaps. But I'd want to take another look at Jimmy Stewart in those Anthony Mann Westerns.

I never said he was a hero. He can't be it in the common Hollywood '50's sense. The "hero" is Widmark, Fonda can't be and  isn't portrayed as such: if we want to perceive him as such because of some grand gesture (and because of the star status of Fonda) then is a very peculiar kind of hero who, as said, thrives on disreputable activities. He has just some kind of code, that's all.   And in the end he chooses not to remain and marry. That marks a difference with Widmark.  I can't remember any of this in Stewart's Mann movies.
The cripple doesn't say anything untrue: he just chooses the wrong moment and Fonda, in line with his not black and white character, has a human, though reprehensible, reaction.
So, if he is the hero, is a new kind: not very far from (actually, quite near to) Joe.

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And the idea of a hero redeeming himself (partially or completely) is a staple of American Westerns. Angel and the Badman immediately comes to mind. Even Shane, we infer, has done some bad things prior to his arrival. Maybe part of his motivation for helping Jean Arthur and her family is that she reminds him of someone ("and there was nobody there to help"), and that he is expiating past transgressions by throwing in with the sheep men.

Sure. But as I said, Fonda (and also Quinn) redeem themselves only partially as due to their non-hero status. The only one who redeems himself is Widmark.   





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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2013, 02:19:14 AM »

This is interesting. I haven't seen that many american westerns so I'll probably go with Rio Bravo (1959).

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