Spoilers flaws and interpretations - a summary

[cigar joe]

Joseph Kennedy, Sr.
Business Personality / Political Figure
The patriarch of the political Kennedy family, Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. was born during Boston's Irish boom of the late 1800s. Famously ambitious, he attended Harvard and by age 25 was already president of a small bank. Later he moved into investment banking, movie theaters, film production and liquor, becoming wealthy in the process. (It is often alleged that he ran liquor illegally during Prohibition.) He supported Democrat Franklin Roosevelt in the elections of 1932; in 1933 the new president made Kennedy chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. In 1938 FDR appointed him ambassador to Britain, making Kennedy the first Irish Catholic to hold that post. His 1913 marriage to Rose Fitzgerald, the daughter of Boston mayor John "Honey Fitz" Fitzgerald, resulted in nine children. Their son John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946 and became president in 1961. Two other sons, Robert and Edward, became U.S. senators.

[Tuco the ugly]

This is only an exception that confirms the rule I'm afraid. Can you name any other bandit-politician joe?

[noodles_leone]

Max?

[dave jenkins]

Joe, you're doing your best, but the strain is starting to show. As far as I know, Joe Kennedy was never indicted for anything illegal. "Allegedly" running booze during prohibition isn't exactly a smoking gun (no, I'm not a Kennedy apologist). And being appointed ambassador is a heck of lot different than a presidential cabinet appointment.

If someone like "Bailey" had been put forward for secretary of anything, the Senate would not have confirmed him. Their background investigation would have revealed his criminal past, or if it were too well hidden, a suspicious lack of info about the guy. The red flags would have gone up on the nomination almost immediately. The press would also have started checking and come up with something. In 1960s America, at the national level (I don't say for the state or local level), its just not credible to believe that an ex-gangster could dodge scrutiny long enough to get such an appointment.

[cigar joe]

I'm not actually trying to do anything,    Kennedy just poped into my head as somebody rumored to have mob connections at one time.

[moviesceleton]

Okay, I've read through this thread now.

Yeah, Joe, you got it. The original script had Bailey as a senator, but that was too high a profile for the purposes of the plot. Making him a secretary was better, but not perfect: it's still a presidential cabinet position, subject to congressional approval, and therefore, subject to a certain amount of publicity. Maybe Noodles wouldn't have noticed, but someone else surely would have, and they would have raised a stink, then it would have become a news item, and then everyone would know.

Who is there to notice him? As CJ said, he's not Al Capone. He was just a smalltimer when he was gangster. Normal people from the neighborhood wouldn't have a clue who is the Secretary of whatever and politicians wouldn't know crooks like him. All the people that would know(notice Secretary Bailey being actually a bootlegger from NYC are the ones who get some benefit out of this situation.

And why would Max, anticipating these very problems, allow himself to be put forward for confirmation in the first place? Why not have a mouthpiece operating as the secretary through whom Max could work? The one law that every old gangster knows is, Stay in the Background. Max's failure to follow this is a flaw in the logic of the plot.

Thinking logically, having a mouthpiece operating as the secretary would be the best thing to do. But as said, Max is a megalomaniac and he wants as high position as possible (and any higher position is not believeable to be possible).

[dave jenkins]

The point is, once you aspire to high political office in America you come in for a lot of scrutiny. People start doing background checks on you, from both the government and press sides. Nobody may have known anything about you before, but suddenly you've got people whose only job is check up on your past. They find the dirt, or they find a big hole where the dirt should be. Either way, this gets noticed, until finally scandal attaches.

[Cusser]

i think this "coming under more scrutiny" for positions in U.S. has a lot to do with paparazzi reporters wanting to gain some instant fame, which was not as much an issue in 1968.

[noodles_leone]

Either way, this gets noticed, until finally scandal attaches.

WHich is exactly what happens in the movie.

[dave jenkins]

Except that he somehow got through the confirmation process without anyone finding out about his past. Certainly he would have been found out once in office, but I don't see how he could have avoided scandal even as a nominee. Red flags would have gone up from the get-go, he would not have been confirmed, he would have been asked to withdraw his nomination, etc. But somehow he became "Secretary" Bailey. It's not credible. I blame SL's lack of familiarity with the U.S. political process.

[moviesceleton]

Except that he somehow got through the confirmation process without anyone finding out about his past. Certainly he would have been found out once in office, but I don't see how he could have avoided scandal even as a nominee. Red flags would have gone up from the get-go, he would not have been confirmed, he would have been asked to withdraw his nomination, etc. But somehow he became "Secretary" Bailey. It's not credible. I blame SL's lack of familiarity with the U.S. political process.

It looks like credible to Europeans. At least I'm buying it, and noodles_leone seems to be buying it too. Okay, maybe now when you have pointed out some things I'm having second thoughts. But honestly I never had a problem with Max becoming Secretary. Leone said something like: "OUATIA is America seen through European eyes". And European eyes are much colored by movies.

[Tuco the ugly]

It looks like credible to Europeans. At least I'm buying it, and noodles_leone seems to be buying it too. Okay, maybe now when you have pointed out some things I'm having second thoughts. But honestly I never had a problem with Max becoming Secretary. Leone said something like: "OUATIA is America seen through European eyes". And European eyes are much colored by movies.

Are you saying that from a European point of view, everything can happen in America? (Both good and bad things.)

[moviesceleton]

Are you saying that from a European point of view, everything can happen in America? (Both good and bad things.)

Not everything. But you know, everything's in bigger scale there.

[Tuco the ugly]

Not everything. But you know, everything's in bigger scale there.

Yeah, I know... 

[noodles_leone]

It looks like credible to Europeans. At least I'm buying it, and noodles_leone seems to be buying it too. Okay, maybe now when you have pointed out some things I'm having second thoughts. But honestly I never had a problem with Max becoming Secretary. Leone said something like: "OUATIA is America seen through European eyes". And European eyes are much colored by movies.

Telling the truth, my mother has always had a problem with that point too... But she's the only one among people around me who have seen the movie...