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Author Topic: Region 1 DVD - Correct mono mix?  (Read 19495 times)
cigar joe
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« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2008, 11:02:08 AM »

Thanks, because I was wondering how.

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The clint
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2008, 10:50:36 AM »

Full analysis of the differences between the original English sound mix and the 5.1 remastered mix:

All the time markers refer to the R1 Collector's Set of DYS.

0:00:40 - Sound comes in at full volume, the original mix has the sound faded up at this point.
0:01:14 - An extra 'wop' has been added at this point. (The French soundtrack on the CE doesn't have the extra 'wop', neither do any of the soundtracks from the 2003 PAL disc, nor does the Italian extended soundtrack so this is definitely not supposed to be here).  I suspect this was taken from the cut print of the film, which started directly with the 'wop' sound to cover up the fact that the beginning of the cue had been cut off. (Music)
0:04:02 - Juan's 'Ah!' sounds different for some reason.
0:10:47 - A lot of stereo reverb has been added to the dialogue here.
0:13:41 - Morricone's music is faded out before we hear the last bell clinging when the shot lawyer drops his head (Music)
0:16:59 - Here is an audio cross-fade to a much lesser quality sound element (previously censored footage)
0:18:50 - Back to good sound quality.
0:20:22 - Back to the bad sound quality (previously censored footage)
0:20:31 - Back to good sound quality. Sound of the explosion changes as it awkwardly hits the rear right channel of the surround mix
0:21:13 - A completely new explosion is overlayed over the old one. This happens most of the time so it's not worth the effort listing all of them
0:28:13 - Drop in sound quality (previously censored footage/dialogue 3)
0:28:42 - Back to good sound quality
0:38:24 - John's laughter is different/shorter at this point for some reason
0:43:00 - Drop in sound quality (previously censored footage 4)
0:48:26 - Juan's laughter is shorter at this point. Back to the good sound quality
1:04:18 - Drop in sound quality (previously censored footage/dialogue)
1:05:14 - Back to good sound quality
1:17:45 - Drop in sound quality (previously censored footage/dialogue)
1:18:02 - Back to good sound quality
1:21:02 - Drop in sound quality (previously censored dialogue)
1:21:07 - Back to good sound quality
1:21:29 - Music fades prematurely (Music)
1:23:23 - Drop in sound quality (Previously censored dialogue)
1:23:26 - Back to good sound quality
1:24:05 - Drop in sound quality (previously censored dialogue)
1:24:14 - Back to good sound quality
1:28:02 - Singular instance of the word 'fuck' has been edited out of the dialogue
1:42:40 - Additional dialogue is present here on the SE but not the 2003 DVD. I no longer have the Pre-Cert to check this part of the film unfortunately. It appears to be an english translation of the spanish dialogue in the background. Here is a transscript of the new dialogue: "Hold it! Load that bastard onto the truck! And see to it that he gets to the camp alive!"
1:51:53   - John says "Duck, You Sucker!" instead of "Short Fuse!". This was an alteration made originally to the short version of the film. This line of dialogue has been taken from earlier in the film, right before John blows up the stagecoach and is, thus, obviously not supposed to be here.
1:52:29   - Drop in sound quality (Previously censored footage)
1:57:16 - Back to good sound quality
1:57:37 - Singular instance of the word 'fuck' has been edited out of the dialogue
2:08:49 - Sound effect of door slamming is obscured here for some reason
2:10:40 - Drop in sound quality (previously censored dialogue)
2:10:53 - Back to good sound quality
2:16:08 - This scene has a completely different version of the theme than the original has. The original mix (and the even French mix on the CE) has track 15 from disc 2 of the extended Italian soundtrack in this scene, whereas this mix has track 1 from disc 1 for the first part of this scene! (Music)
2:16:42 - The first gunshot sounds doubled up. This is because the effect was lifted from the censored version which had John kill both of the policemen in succession.
2:16:47 - Here track 1 is mixed into track 13 of disc 2! The second gunshot covers the edit. (Music)
2:25:07 - The original version has reverb on John's last yell
2:27:00 - Drop in sound quality (previously censored footage/dialogue)
2:27:21 - Back to good sound quality
2:30:06 - Music starts at full volume instead of fading up. The music here is completely different to the original version. The original mix has track 1 from disc 1 of the Italian extended soundtrack, whereas this mix has the first part of track 5 called "I Figli Morti" (in English: The Dead Sons, and has been lifted from the scene when John blows up the bridge. Ennio Morricone would never re-use the exact same musical cue for a scene so it obviously does not belong here). (Music)
2:30:17 - John's grunts have been muted here.
2:30:52 - Here track 5 is terribly crossfaded into track 13 (again)! (Music)
2:34:42 - Music starts at full volume instead of fading up. Again the version used is completely different to the original version. The original music for the end credits can not be heard on the old 2003 DVD because that version is missing the flashback and had the flashback music extended over the end credits. It can, however, be heard in the German sound mix of the same disc as well as the Pre-Cert VHS. Again, we have to endure yet another playout of track 13! The real end credit music does not appear to be on the extended soundtrack. I have an mp3 if anyone is interested to hear it. (Music)

There appear to have been two sources for the 5.1 remastered soundtrack for Duck You Sucker, the main bulk of the film seems to have been put together from a soundtrack master for the 138 minute US version. The gaps that were created have been filled by a lesser quality English version of the full English soundtrack, which was released on a DVD in 2003. Therefor, in some instances, dialogue has been censored or altered in the new mix.

The remixing team have also taken it upon themselves to "liven up" the limited original soundtrack by overlaying new sound effects. This however was a terrible mistake because you can hear a mile away what sound effects are new, and which ones are original because, firstly the new effects have completely different audio fidelity and secondly, the new effects are the only sound effects that are in stereo! Additions include horse trampling, glass breaking, locomotive noises, engine noises, gunshot impacts, new explosions that are pasted "over" the original ones (not "instead" of the original ones, as you can still hear the original explosions behind the new ones!) and lots of rock and sand fall-out from every single explosion in the film.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 11:40:33 AM by The clint » Logged
dave jenkins
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2008, 05:34:46 PM »

Wow, you could turn this into a book. Good work Afro

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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2008, 11:46:47 PM »

The clint, thanks for posting your analysis and sharing it with the board.  It's impressive, and quite detailed.  It would be cool if you printed it out and somehow were able to forward a copy to the team that handled the restoration work to see how they would respond. 

In addition to having the reference resources, and a great ear, you must have a pretty nice theater set up for your monitor.  Right now I don't have anything hooked up to mine; definitely no way I could even try to pick up on some of the differences in audible quality that you outlined.  I suppose headphones might be a possibility.  Even still, not sure my ears would even be as perceptive as yours.  Sad

It's almost distressing at this point the number of cuts, edits, audio track issues, television edits and restoration edits..... for just the last four films alone.  It would almost be a full time vocation to research and categorize them.  Really sucks.

I guess, I too, am confused on that rescue scene.  My first thought is...why in the world would it have been even necessary to tamper with the dialogue in that scene for the shortened U.S. version?   

« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 12:33:13 AM by Noodles_SlowStir » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2008, 11:31:47 AM »

It's almost distressing at this point the number of cuts, edits, audio track issues, television edits and restoration edits..... for just the last four films alone.  It would almost be a full time vocation to research and categorize them.  Really sucks.
But this makes up for the relative paucity of titles in the Leone oeuvre. The true fan must spend his days assembling a collection of all the variants available. For my own part, I wish to own on DVD (or some other form) every language dub of every SL film.

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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2008, 10:40:44 AM »

But this makes up for the relative paucity of titles in the Leone oeuvre. The true fan must spend his days assembling a collection of all the variants available. For my own part, I wish to own on DVD (or some other form) every language dub of every SL film.

I think it’s a great outlook.  I really do admire your intent to assemble a personal library of all the various editions, edits and language versions.  I agree that the various edit histories do contribute to the discussion of the artist’s work..... which is very positive.  I’ve really learned a lot and have enjoyed reading the posts of others on the forum.  My admiration led me to the board and it’s only grown since. I think what’s  difficult to reconcile at times is the overall issue of the artist and his work.  When an artist takes great care to create a detailed and rich vision in what became a limited body of work, and it can be altered or changed.  Particularly troublesome are the changes beyond the differences in various international cuts and studio imposed edits.  Not that those are more easy to accept, but they happened at the time the films were made and in the lifetime of the artist.

Not sure I’m expressing the feeling adequately.  I really don’t have to express the idea, because it’s not innovative or new at all.  I know that everyone that appreciates the artist and his cinema (just about everyone that takes the time to post here regardless of the frequency) has their own personal take on this.  It’s expressed so often in the posts on the board and it’s definitely what motivates the creation of this kind of thread.

I think I’d like to discuss a bit the “short fuse” vs “duck, you sucker” issue.  It’s not new and has been talked about some on three or four old threads.  I should reread them. I think it might be best to resurrect one of those old threads.  I’m interested in member preference and director intent.

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« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2008, 05:15:55 PM »

I think what’s  difficult to reconcile at times is the overall issue of the artist and his work.  When an artist takes great care to create a detailed and rich vision in what became a limited body of work, and it can be altered or changed.  Particularly troublesome are the changes beyond the differences in various international cuts and studio imposed edits.  Not that those are more easy to accept, but they happened at the time the films were made and in the lifetime of the artist.
And of course things like the auteur theory can actually get in the way of understanding how particular films should be received. I don't say that the auteur idea is always invalid, but distinctions have to be observed. There are obviously different ways films can be made. People like Bergman and Herzog, who have virtually complete control over their small productions, can be considered hard auteurs. Industry flacks like Michael Bay, Joel Schumacher, and Richie Cunningham--who leave nothing of a personal stamp on their films--are on the opposite end of the spectrum, and can be considered non-auteurs. But there is another category of filmmaker, one to which Hitchcock and Leone both belong, that we could call the soft auteurs. These filmmakers are the dominant creative force behind particular projects, but they aren't the whole story. It is not merely the fact that on larger productions collaborations are necessary, but that the economics of large scale filmmaking make compromises necessary. Even with the right of final cut, a director must be mindful of running time limitations, censorship issues, the requirements of different markets. If, for example, you decide to exhibit a film internationally, then the whole matter of language comes into play. Do you dub or subtitle? If your film is big enough, you may not have a choice--dubs will have to be prepared per standard industry practice (as was done in the Italian industry in the 60s), or to reach into foreign TV markets. Usually we can then still distinguish between the "original language" dub and others, but with certain international productions (such as Leone's), who is to say what the original language is?  Is the Italian language version of, say, BBC/GBU to be preferred to the English language version of the film? On the one hand, the filmmakers are Italian, on the other, the three principals are English speakers who dubbed themselves for the English language version of the film only. The two versions are cut differently, but the longer cut isn't necessarily the definitive one. Leone may have chosen the cuts for GBU just as he had for BBC, mindful of the differing requirements of the different markets. That being the case, both versions of the film have equal claim to being considered director's cuts. But then, are the French or German or Japanese language versions of the film any less valid? Perhaps, but research is necessary to determine this. To what extent was Leone involved in the preparation of these different language versions? And isn't the choice not to be involved--when such a thing can be demonstrated--also a creative one? And then there is this: even when creative choices are taken by someone other than the director (producers, distributors, etc.), are those choices automatically invalid? What if they lead to an exhibition of a film that becomes the historically accepted version of the title?

These issues are not always easily settled. In most cases, we don't bother with the potential complexities--but then, as we all know, Leone is a special case.

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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2008, 10:47:29 AM »

The only complaint I have about the new 5.1 surround mix is the incorrect musical cues. They play the same version of the main theme (track 13 on the new DYS CD) 3 times in the span of 20 minutes. It's suppose to be track 15 for the flashback where Mallory's friend is killed, the original DYS theme for the final flashback, and After the Explosion for the credits though I think Track 13 fits nicely here.

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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2008, 02:22:56 PM »

I think I’d like to discuss a bit the “short fuse” vs “duck, you sucker” issue.  It’s not new and has been talked about some on three or four old threads.  I should reread them. I think it might be best to resurrect one of those old threads.  I’m interested in member preference and director intent.

If you ask me, I think it's obvious that "short fuse" was both the director's preferred line and the original dubbed line.

The only complaint I have about the new 5.1 surround mix is the incorrect musical cues. They play the same version of the main theme (track 13 on the new DYS CD) 3 times in the span of 20 minutes. It's suppose to be track 15 for the flashback where Mallory's friend is killed, the original DYS theme for the final flashback, and After the Explosion for the credits though I think Track 13 fits nicely here.

After the Explosion was actually not the music used for the end credit scene in the original release of the film, but a variation of the DYS theme, not included on the soundtrack. I have an mp3 of it if you want to hear it.

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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2008, 04:25:13 PM »

I have an mp3 of it if you want to hear it.

Hell yeah! Please share.   Afro

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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2008, 05:34:16 PM »

Here you go:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/1091074217d9a606/

Ripped from the German mono soundtrack of the 2003 region 2 A Fistful of Dynamite release, not very good quality I'm afraid.

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« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2008, 05:08:37 AM »

Thanks Afro

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« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2008, 12:34:01 PM »

And of course things like the auteur theory can actually get in the way of understanding how particular films should be received. I don't say that the auteur idea is always invalid, but distinctions have to be observed.

Thanks Dave. You’ve brought up a lot of interesting ideas.  I appreciate the time you put into your post. I enjoyed reading your take on the international edit process.  I’ve read your previous posts on BBC/GBU.  You really expand on it here and bring out a lot of good points. How Leone is even unique within the framework of international film production. The other idea you talk about which I found thought provoking is the potential “evolution” of a film even after its release from its creator(s). That a film doesn’t necessarily remain a fixed work after its initial release.

You’re right I do somewhat invest in the auteur theory.  I don’t think to the extent that I overlook the fact that cinema is a collaborative art.  I definitely recognize that the contributions of film composers, cinematographers, writers, producers and actors (etc..) can be important in a production and can raise the quality of the production beyond the original vision of the director.  Perhaps at times the auteur theory does allow for an uneven focus on the creation phase of film.  I suppose there are other general theories of art creation that are at work as well.

Quote
These issues are not always easily settled. In most cases, we don't bother with the potential complexities--but then, as we all know, Leone is a special case.

Yes, they are quite complex.  He certainly had his own angst and frustration from the inside as the artist dealing with these issues. I do agree with you that any effort to sort out the complexities in this case is well worth it.


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« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2008, 12:49:01 PM »

If you ask me, I think it's obvious that "short fuse" was both the director's preferred line and the original dubbed line.

I’m very much interested in your view.  I didn’t want to side track the discussion on your thread.... too much. Smiley  It’s definitely a point and issue within your analysis.

I would be in agreement with you on favoring the line that SL intended for that scene.  Through your research of the audio track you’ve come to the conclusion that “short fuse” was the preferred and intended line.   

I was trying to think through how the change could of been made in the first place by first looking at how the lines play within the scene .  Although it sounds quite cool for the second time, “Duck, you sucker” seems to play straight forward.  “Short fuse” on the other hand would seem to have broader meaning within the scene.  It would seem that the decision to change that line would be contingent on changes to the earlier scenes.  But in the shortened U.S. version, weren’t those specific segments when each phrase is said left untouched?  They had to deconstruct the soundtrack for the edit.  So the decision to change the line in the subsequent rescue scene was the result of editors thinking through the scenario in a similar way, and deciding what they thought was the best dialogue option for the scene?  Maybe another possibility was that they decided to make the change in favor of the “duck, you sucker” line simply because it was thought to be reinforcement of the film title on it’s first U.S. box office run?

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« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2008, 03:09:57 PM »

I was trying to think through how the change could of been made in the first place by first looking at how the lines play within the scene .  Although it sounds quite cool for the second time, “Duck, you sucker” seems to play straight forward.  “Short fuse” on the other hand would seem to have broader meaning within the scene.  It would seem that the decision to change that line would be contingent on changes to the earlier scenes.  But in the shortened U.S. version, weren’t those specific segments when each phrase is said left untouched?  They had to deconstruct the soundtrack for the edit.  So the decision to change the line in the subsequent rescue scene was the result of editors thinking through the scenario in a similar way, and deciding what they thought was the best dialogue option for the scene?  Maybe another possibility was that they decided to make the change in favor of the “duck, you sucker” line simply because it was thought to be reinforcement of the film title on it’s first U.S. box office run?
Your explanations seem plausible. Regardless, the "duck, you sucker" version of the scene should be preserved, if for no other reason than that it provides us with an interesting variant. The clint has convinced me that "short fuse" was Leone's original intention, however, and as such, should be given preference.

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