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Author Topic: Duration problem - very important!  (Read 7158 times)
Bill Carson
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« on: December 24, 2007, 02:20:06 AM »

I am very disappointed and I want to finally clear this mess which annoyes me very much. I hope that you can help me to do that.

This is the problem.

I have the VHS copy of this film for many years (which I recorded when this movie was on TV), but I FINALLY find (because you simply couldn`t find it in my country) and bought the 2 disc special edition of this film. I can`t described how happy I was. But, then it happend. On the cover of the DVD`s is writen that the movie duration is 159 min. When I check this out on the Internet, I find in many places that this version is collectors edition and that is “ORIGINAL FULL VERSION“.

So I thought: there is 3 versions that I know off:
   1. Shortened version that was originally released in America;
   2. Then there is another shortened version but not cut out as much as the American release (this version is about 15 minutes longer then American release - that is the version that I have on VHS);
   3. And the full 159 min. version.

But, then I looked up in some books and in Microsoft Cinemania and there you have another information – FULL LENGHT OF THE MOVIE IS 165 MIN.!

I was furious… At the first I thought that this 6 minutes diference could be the scene in which sheriff`s men beating Bronson and scene in which Fonda gets shaved, but it is not logically, because that scenes were cut out by Leone himself, so it is not possible that they count them as part of the full version. So it must be something else. I wanted to check this out so I started to watch the VHS and DVD version in the same time to compare them and I could`t believe what I saw. At the begining of the film, when Ellam, Strode and Muloch waiting Bronson there is a difference. In allegedly full version of the movie on the DVD, there is TWO cuts of the Muloch when he “cracking“ his fingers, but in the shorter VHS version there is THREE cuts of Muloch doing that. So it`s thurned out that in shorter version THERE IS a scene that DON`T EXIST in "allegedly" collectors edition full version!!!

You may check this for yourself. Surely many of you have that 2 disc collectors edition so look it up. There is the shot of Muloch when he starts to "crack" his fingers (he was shot from the front), then after we saw Strode and Ellam, there is second shot of Muloch "cracking" his fingers (again, from the front), then again that is followed by shots of Strode and Ellam and then we comes to the shot that misses in "full" version - shot of Muloch "cracking" his fingers (for the THIRD time) but now he is not shot from the front but we see his hands and fingers from the above (like the camera is his own eyes). It is like some sort of "close up" on his hands and fingers shot from the above (abreast of his head). After that there is a shot of Strode drinking the water from his hat, shot of Ellam releases the fly from the barrel of his gun and then the fourth shot of Muloch in which he turns off and we see the incoming train. So the whole one shot (THE THIRD SHOT) of Muloch (which is included in the shortened version that I possess) misses in the "full" version!

Like I allready said I was furios and I stop compareing the two versions because I was “affraid“ that I would find something else that exist in shorter but not in "full" version.

So I ask for your help my friends. Does anyone knows anything about this, or, better say, does anyone knows the exact and accurate duration of this film? To clear this once and for all! Thank you all in advance.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 12:44:23 AM by Bill Carson » Logged
dave jenkins
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« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2007, 09:36:51 AM »

There is no such thing as "the exact and accurate" duration of this film, because, for example, the Italian version is actually a different cut. If your question is "which is the longest cut of the film ?" then the answer is the Italian one, which reportedly runs to 175 min. Jayson Kennedy detailed the differences between the Italian and the restored international cut here: http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=734.0

I cannot comment on your VHS/DVD question without knowing more about the media involved. The difference between a 159 minute version and a 165 minute version of the film on video *could* be a simple matter of format differences if one is PAL (which speeds up the film) and the other NTSC (which correctly replicates a film's run time). Although, as you mention the extra shot of Knuckles, there must be something else going on there as well......

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Bill Carson
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« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2007, 01:47:17 AM »

Dave, thank you very much for this informations, buddy! Afro

I cannot comment on your VHS/DVD question without knowing more about the media involved. The difference between a 159 minute version and a 165 minute version of the film on video *could* be a simple matter of format differences if one is PAL (which speeds up the film) and the other NTSC (which correctly replicates a film's run time).

I am not sure if you understand correctly everything that I said (maybe that is my fault - my english is not perfect).

The DVD version that I recently bought is 159 minutes version (so that is the longer version of the two that I possess), and VHS version that I have for years is some 10 minutes shorter.

Although, as you mention the extra shot of Knuckles, there must be something else going on there as well......

Because of that I was surprised. If there were some scenes in longer DVD version, that wasn`t included in shorter VHS version, that wouldn`t be strange. I could expect it. But problem was that in shorter VHS version there is some scenes that wasn`t included in longer DVD version. That`s what confused me, especially because this DVD version is (as it`s written on the cover) "special 2 disc collectors edition", so you could expect that this version is the "full version". But now I know better, because you explaned me some things that I didn`t know.

About 165 min. version - I don`t have it neither on DVD nor VHS. I just said that I found informations in some books and "Microsoft cinemania" that the full version is 165 min. long. I thought that this is the "Italian version", but, like I said, now you explaned me this.

I can just said that, unfortunatelly, there isn`t one ULTIMATE version of the film, that we could call "the full version". Great pity...

Maybe, only solution is to find that "Italian version". If nothing else, at least that is the longer version that exist.

Once again, thank you very much, buddy.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 01:50:27 AM by Bill Carson » Logged
The clint
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2007, 06:41:59 PM »

http://www.schnittberichte.com/schnittbericht.php?ID=4208

This site demonstrates the difference between the Italian and International cuts of the film.

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Bill Carson
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« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2007, 12:22:48 AM »

http://www.schnittberichte.com/schnittbericht.php?ID=4208

This site demonstrates the difference between the Italian and International cuts of the film.

Great stuf, buddy. Thank you very much.

Only, it`s pity that site isn`t in english, because I don`t know german, but never mind. The pictures are quite enough.

Once again, thank you very much.

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« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2007, 12:41:36 PM »

That's really an interesting site. Bill Carson - most of that German simply says that some scenes take longer or they begin sooner.
I think the most interesting one for me is the short scene of Harmonica watching Wobbles as he goes to the railway. That should be in the international cut, really... Undecided

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« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2007, 02:13:48 PM »

Whew! For a second, after reading the thread title, I thought maybe my ex-wife
decided to post her grievances here! Roll Eyes

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« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2007, 04:30:18 PM »

Whew! For a second, after reading the thread title, I thought maybe my ex-wife
decided to post her grievances here! Roll Eyes

 Grin

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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2008, 11:56:57 AM »

Just got to know that (at least) following scenes were cut on OUATITW's initial release in Finland:

-"Shooting the boy" (removed)
-"Torturing the man in the roller" (removed)
-"Crawling of the dying manager in a mud hole" (shortened)
- "Hanging of the avenger's brother" (shortened)

Altogether 4 min. 12 sec. removed. I translated them as directly as I could from here: http://www.elonet.fi/title/ek45wy/tarkastus

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TheManFromWilderness
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2008, 08:38:20 PM »

 I have the italian dvd which runs 170 minutes.Before watching this version ,I was sure OUATIW was 165 min. Now I believe this movie runs 180 min. this Italian dvd does not contain any extra scenes.It has extra shots.this extra shots 11 minutes long and these shots does not contain any actor voices.
only music and SFX.That s too bad paramount did not use this version.(probably next couple of years they going to sell this version)
  As far as I know we still need fighting scene between harmonica and sheriff's men(interesting thing is one of the man in that picture (fransk's man)
 and I can not get it connection between sheriff and franks men.there must be additional scenes)
                             still missing barber scene. (frank before visits harmonica at hotel he is with barber)
                             and as I remember from cumbow's book he said there is a scene that wanted poster appears for  jason robard
 PS:  and also italian dvd contains Fabio Testi's name at the and of movie.That's also very suprised to me.He was not credited all other versions.

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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2008, 02:27:55 PM »

PS:  and also italian dvd contains Fabio Testi's name at the and of movie.That's also very suprised to me.He was not credited all other versions.


Fabio Testi is in all versions. He's one of Frank's men, the one who was shot by Frank in Flagstone and fell through the roof.

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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2008, 06:39:56 AM »

Fabio Testi is in all versions. He's one of Frank's men, the one who was shot by Frank in Flagstone and fell through the roof.

Is he credited? That's the point, I think...

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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2008, 03:13:32 PM »

Fabio Testi is in all versions. He's one of Frank's men, the one who was shot by Frank in Flagstone and fell through the roof.



what I mean is ''he is credited at the end of the movie''.Of course in all versions he plays:))

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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2008, 03:20:13 AM »

I have the italian dvd which runs 170 minutes.Before watching this version ,I was sure OUATIW was 165 min. Now I believe this movie runs 180 min. this Italian dvd does not contain any extra scenes.It has extra shots.this extra shots 11 minutes long and these shots does not contain any actor voices.
only music and SFX.That s too bad paramount did not use this version.(probably next couple of years they going to sell this version)
  As far as I know we still need fighting scene between harmonica and sheriff's men(interesting thing is one of the man in that picture (fransk's man)
 and I can not get it connection between sheriff and franks men.there must be additional scenes)
                             still missing barber scene. (frank before visits harmonica at hotel he is with barber)
                             and as I remember from cumbow's book he said there is a scene that wanted poster appears for  jason robard
 PS:  and also italian dvd contains Fabio Testi's name at the and of movie.That's also very suprised to me.He was not credited all other versions.


This scenes you're talking about will never be re-inserted in the movie for two reasons:
1) they do not match the rest of the movie (same dialogues...) since they were cut DURING THE SHOOTING, which resulted in changes of the sript
2) As far as I know, Leone didn't want these scenes.

But as extras, it would be great to see them (in the bonus DVD of the "edition of our dreams").

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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2008, 04:46:54 PM »

[This scenes you're talking about will never be re-inserted in the movie for two reasons:
1) they do not match the rest of the movie (same dialogues...) since they were cut DURING THE SHOOTING, which resulted in changes of the sript
2) As far as I know, Leone didn't want these scenes.

But as extras, it would be great to see them (in the bonus DVD of the "edition of our dreams").]


but I am sure those scenes exist.and you may right ,they do not match rest of the movie.

I will open a new topic for one deleted scene very soon with a couple of screen shots to prove that that scene was shot and it  is exist.(it is about an actor, his name is credited but he is not in the movie)

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