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Author Topic: Music Score in the Grotto Scene  (Read 9269 times)
Dirty Rat
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« on: January 14, 2008, 03:54:58 AM »

The scene begins with Tuco dangling a chicken as he enters the Grotto - that always makes me smile!
I cannot remember the actual name of the piece that they chose for this scene but it is the same as when Blondie is recovering in the hospital and Tuco is talking to one of the priests (when he necks the whiskey).
My question is where did the very intro come from that is played right at the beginning of the scene which badly cuts into this piece that we already know? It is only a couple of seconds long but I do not recognise it from anywhere on the official expanded score that is commerically available.

Do any of you know?

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dave jenkins
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2008, 11:51:33 AM »

I don't and it's a good question. It also makes me wonder whether this music was actually on the Rome premier cut of the film, or if it's been recently added, like Tuco's English dub.

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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2008, 04:46:48 AM »

Personally I think that the music was added along with the new Tuco dub - as in, it did not appear in the original Rome premiere.

The music itself is an excellent piece that is quite moving and fits the scene that it has been copied from to great effect. I don't think however that the music fits the Grotto scene at all and I think that Eli's dubbing and the editing is dreadful. I do however still love that scene!! I watch it with the sound off to appreciate it's quality.

As for the very intro of the music I have no idea where that came from. I like it but the editing into the other piece of music sounds worse than the editing that I used to do on cassettes with my raster blaster back in the 80's....  Grin


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archangel
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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2008, 08:18:43 AM »

i'd agree about tuco's "voice".
very thin and sratchy.
i'm an audio person and it would have been just so easy to match the voice of the "old" and "young" Eli.
the right choice of mic would be first off.
then some eq (tone) on the old Eli to roll off the tops (treble) and hence the raspiness.
even better would have been a voice print of the young Eli superimposed over the old Eli.
funny how these "restoration experts" missed that.
most DAW's (Digital Audio Workstations) have more than you'd even need to do the type of thing well.
but these guys were clueless?
Clint's voice is a lot better matched to his original.
and the guy who does LvC is naturally pitched more baritone and opposed to LcV's tenor. Eq would have been enough with this.
i have GBU in the mac's DVD player now and will check the music edit and get back.
archie.

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archangel
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2008, 08:49:23 AM »

The scene begins with Tuco dangling a chicken as he enters the Grotto - that always makes me smile!
I cannot remember the actual name of the piece that they chose for this scene but it is the same as when Blondie is recovering in the hospital and Tuco is talking to one of the priests (when he necks the whiskey).
My question is where did the very intro come from that is played right at the beginning of the scene which badly cuts into this piece that we already know? It is only a couple of seconds long but I do not recognise it from anywhere on the official expanded score that is commerically available.

Do any of you know?

you are right, i've never heard it before either, just checked the DVD.
after this little new bit it segues into the playful three note motive on the woodwind, we've all heard before.
starts with flute, then oboe then cor anglais (tenor oboe) and end with the famous "Ah eh Ah eh Ahhhhhhh" played on the CA again.
btw, the playful motive, actually the 1st, 7th and 5th of a major scale, is used by Ennio a lot in many soundtracks including "The Mission".
flexible little three notes......
Mina's Se Telephonando uses this device as well. (EM wrote the music, 1966, around the time of GBU.)

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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2008, 05:39:47 AM »

Thanks for the info Archie

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Lil Brutto
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2011, 12:53:47 AM »

Personally I think that the music was added along with the new Tuco dub - as in, it did not appear in the original Rome premiere.

The music itself is an excellent piece that is quite moving and fits the scene that it has been copied from to great effect. I don't think however that the music fits the Grotto scene at all and I think that Eli's dubbing and the editing is dreadful. I do however still love that scene!! I watch it with the sound off to appreciate it's quality.

As for the very intro of the music I have no idea where that came from. I like it but the editing into the other piece of music sounds worse than the editing that I used to do on cassettes with my raster blaster back in the 80's....  Grin

Over 2 years later I believe I can confirm your suspicions, Dirty Rat.  Afro

Aside from the horrible dubbing of Eli's lines as well as the 3 bandidos, the score during this scene on the MGM SE DVD/BD never sat well with me. (I don't have an issue with Eli's voice sounding different, what do you expect nearly 40 years later? Instead, I'm appalled by the fact that John Kirk et al. couldn't even get the lines right when it's fairly easy to determine what Eli really says by reading his lips and I'm no professional lip reader!)

Firstly, I don't think Leone/Morricone would have approved the use of the exact same score in 2 totally separate scenes. Also, it's obvious MGM needed to extend the borrowed score a bit by clumsily adding on the intro piece of music in order to fit the scene better.

I was tipped off earlier today by a bootleg download of the complete soundtrack from an Ennio Morricone blog site where the 2nd part of track 5 (i.e. not preceded by the rope bridge score) is titled simply, "In the Grotto (1:03)". I originally thought this score was intended for the lost Socorro scene (incorrectly assuming that MGM got the Grotto scene right) but it makes much more sense that it was actually intended for the Grotto scene. I then played the Grotto scene with the volume down and started "In the Grotto" track immediately after Tuco, while holding out the chicken, says, "....why do you kill yourself working?"

Guess what? It fits the scene perfectly!  Shocked

When Tuco says, "If you work for a living...." the 2nd time around it doesn't fit with the proper score, which makes total sense to me because I don't think Tuco was meant to say that line again at that moment. I sure can't see his lips moving!!

Furthermore, the track list of the official expanded score is in chronological order and the grotto score comes after the score for the rope bridge and before the score where Blondie escapes being hanged by Tuco at the hotel. The Socorro scene would have followed Angel Eyes at the fort, which wouldn't fit with the order of the tracks on the CD.

Long story short...MGM failed miserably at getting the Grotto scene right. I know many of the folks here don't care for this scene but I'm guessing this has a lot do with how poorly it was "restored". At the very least, I would like to see this scene redone using the proper music.




« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 10:10:39 AM by eurospec19 » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2011, 02:08:58 AM »

It has more to do that the scene isn't necessary, and just like the Socorro scene makes the film longer at a time where it already tends to be too long.

And I don't see a great use in introducing 3 guys who simply got shot one scene later. The later scene works as well (if not better) without knowing these guys.
For me this scene destroys the balance of the film at this point.

Apart from that it is quite interesting what you have said about the score of this scene. Makes me wonder what the Italian scene looked like. Maybe it wasn't ever part of any Italian version, and then maybe it wasn't ever dubbed and scored.

Btw, does this scene appear on any of the Italian DVDs?

« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 02:12:21 AM by stanton » Logged

Lil Brutto
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2011, 10:00:18 AM »

No, this scene isn't included in any Italian home release of the film. However, the fact that this scene was cut at the final stage before theatrical release is consistent with it showing up on the expanded score CD in the appropriate chronological order. I wonder if the original Italian vocal/sound effects track is used on the MGM SE DVD? I'll have to check.

I'm not trying to debate whether or not the grotto scene should be included in the film. I understand the sentiment that the scene is unnecessary and messes up the pace of an already marginally long movie. However, I feel it shows Tuco's ingenuity by manipulating the 3 bandidos in addition to correcting the obvious continuity problem. I always wondered where they came from for 20 years until the SE DVD was released although I must admit it is not a critical issue.

All I'm saying is that by playing this score over the grotto scene clearly shows it was intended for this scene. The music syncs well with Tuco popping his head around the cave wall and its duration fits with the time it takes Tuco to enter the cave and grab a potato, just before his monologue begins.

MGM didn't do this cut scene any favors by using the wrong score and terrible dubbing, which only makes the scene more superfluous in many people's eyes.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 12:10:54 PM by eurospec19 » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2011, 11:09:58 AM »

It has more to do that the scene isn't necessary, and just like the Socorro scene makes the film longer at a time where it already tends to be too long.
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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2011, 12:05:24 PM »

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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2011, 12:11:13 PM »

I was tipped off earlier today by a bootleg download of the complete soundtrack from an Ennio Morricone blog site where the 2nd part of track 5 (i.e. not preceded by the rope bridge score) is titled simply, "In the Grotto (1:03)". I originally thought this score was intended for the lost Socorro scene (incorrectly assuming that MGM got the Grotto scene right) but it makes much more sense that it was actually intended for the Grotto scene.

Nice detective work eurospec  Afro

What we need to do now is contact Scorcese and say that now he's done with the OUATITW blu-ray, he should turn his attention to a nice blu-ray of GBU.

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Lil Brutto
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2011, 03:03:46 PM »

Thanks, Novocento.

It would be great if Scorcese or someone else with the knowledge, power and passion would set out to provide the ultimate restoration of this film: Restored mono soundtrack, theatrical, MGM extended and Rome Premiere cuts using seamless branching of previously deleted scenes, and the restored video of the Mondo BD.

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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2011, 03:22:48 PM »

Thanks, Novocento.

It would be great if Scorcese or someone else with the knowledge, power and passion would set out to provide the ultimate restoration of this film: Restored mono soundtrack, theatrical, MGM extended and Rome Premiere cuts using seamless branching of previously deleted scenes, and the restored video of the Mondo BD.

Well, yes, that would be indeed great. But it will remain a dream.

It seems they are not even willing to add the mono sound. And that should be an implicitness for people who dare to change the sound for an unnecessary 5.1 sound. Especially on a medium which allows a lot of audio tracks.

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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2011, 02:17:47 PM »


H Guys,
             continuing on the grotto scene...I've always wondered firstly why TUCO would plunge his hand straight into a boiling cauldron of water to retrieve a potato...and not burn his hand...and secondly, why did the bandits come in through a hole in the roof rather than the cave opening?

ICE

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