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Author Topic: Johnny Guitar (1954)  (Read 20364 times)
stanton
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« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2012, 05:26:16 AM »

in a list made by 28 French film critics Johnny Guitar was in 1965 the best western of all. Followed by Rio Bravo and the Big Sky. Another list from 1995 based on the favourite westerns of 50 film enthusiasts (mostly form Germany) it was the # 6 (together with Unforgiven). So there are some people who seem to like it. 0 is a funny rating for such a well directed film.

For me it is a 8/10 western.

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« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2012, 06:12:42 AM »

This is one of the worst Westerns ever made 0/10
True, but it could look really great on Blu! Afro

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« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2012, 09:00:53 AM »

I also have seen this - once, and watched it only because it had been touted as "a" reference for Once-West.  I agree - it's one of the worst films ever.  I wanted to put on spiked shoes and walk over the two actresses' faces, especially "Frenchie" if I remember correctly.


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drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2012, 09:20:35 AM »

I also have seen this - once, and watched it only because it had been touted as "a" reference for Once-West.  I agree - it's one of the worst films ever.  I wanted to put on spiked shoes and walk over the two actresses' faces, especially "Frenchie" if I remember correctly.


Same here. I bet Nicholas Ray paid off Bernardo Bertolucci to stick those references into OUATITW. Apparently, being a reference in OUATITW is the best possible advertising for a Western, even an awful one. I did not like Warlock, and I think High Noon was very overrated; but Johnny Guitar is the only major OUATITW reference I can think of that I absolutely hate.

And it seems that on these boards, people either absolutely HATE or absolutely LOVE it  Shocked

Mercedes McCambridge is one of the most annoying people to ever appear on screen. Big screen, small screen, any screen. I am not even talking about her looks, which make Joan Crawford seem like Miss America. McCambridge is just a screaming bitch.... And really, who wants to even think about Crawford and McCambridge getting it on with ANYBODY, much less with each other?? (we need a Vomiting icon).... And Sterling Hayden is so bad here, when I later saw him later in The Godfather and The Killing, I couldn't believe it was the same person.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 09:27:54 AM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2012, 09:24:33 AM »

Mercedes McCambridge is one of the most annoying people to ever appear on screen.
Seconded.

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« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2012, 09:43:51 AM »

Bosley Crowther's 1954 review: "Let's put it down as a fiasco."
 http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9F07E1D8133EE53BBC4051DFB366838F649EDE&partner=Rotten


« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 04:49:52 AM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2012, 12:16:33 PM »

Saw it for the 3-4th time, first undubbed and second on a big screen. I think Crowther nails it when he writes about Crawford:"No more femininity comes from her than from the rugged Mr. Heflin in "Shane." For the lady, as usual, is as sexless as the lions on the public library steps and as sharp and romantically forbidding as a package of unwrapped razor blades". He could have said just that she's ugly: that's my main problem with the movie. Another grudge is the other two male leads, Hayden and Brady: too wooden. I save only MacCambridgebecause she can be annoying or ugly: but that fits to her part. Still the movie, apart some scene tinged with unvolontary fun dialogues (like those between the two leads) proceeds very well as to rhythm and interest; some images like the saloon burning or Crawford playing the piano (in a white dress that never gets a touch of dirt even after she is almost hung, burned and gone through a mine) are pictorially effective, the haunting motive is unforgettable and I give it a 8\10. 

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« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2012, 07:54:36 PM »

That surreal scene with Crawford playing the piano is the one moment in this movie that made me smile. Otherwise an excruciating piece of shit.

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« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2012, 01:29:25 PM »

Savant sez:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s3926guit.html

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« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2012, 03:55:49 PM »

I have nothing more to say about this movie, perhaps the worst Western of all-time, but Erickson yet again shows himself to be an idiot with this:

"The beauty of Johnny Guitar can be seen in its unofficial remake by Sergio Leone, who had a nagging habit of appropriating successful movies by other directors. The epic Once Upon a Time in the West repeats the same plotline but with one-dimensional characters, gaining its power from a wholly different set of dramatic-aesthetic values. Ray's film offers a social message while Leone's is pure operatic mythomania."

No, jackass. OUATITW is not a re-make, official or unofficial. It is an homage to the dozens of Westerns that Leone loved, Johnny Guitar being just one of them. True, OUATITW quotes some films are quoted more than others, and Johnny Guitar indeed,  -- along with a few others such as High Noon -- is the source for more of OUATITW's quotations, than is, say The Return of Frank James But it sure as hell ain't an "unofficial remake." Nor did he have "a nagging habbit of appropriating successful movies by other directors." Yes, FOD was a direct re-make of Yojimbo. And Leone frequently pays homage in his own movies to moments from movies that he loved in his youth -- as do so many other cineastes. But having a "a nagging habit of appropriating successful movies by other directors" implies that you basically take successful movies, and re-do them, or big chunks of them, pretending as if they are original ideas. Making a direct remake, or lovingly "quoted" from beloved movies is not "appropriating."
RE: the script of FOD: Based on what I've read from from Frayling, It is unclear exactly what Leone intended (there are various theories as to whether he attempted to steal it and no one would notice; whether he wanted to to contact Kurosawa but no one got around to it, etc. )

 But aside from FOD-Yojimbo, there is no way you can say Leone had a habit of appropriation. References (or "quotations," as Bernardo Bertolucci likes to call them) are not appropriation; and they are clearly intended to be an homage to the source. It's something that every director who is a cineaste has done at some point in his career; Leone did it perhaps more frequently, (as he may have been a great fan of American cinema than just about anyone else). Being open about a reference to movies you love is not appropriation. And btw, Leone's movies which reference other ones were far greater than the "successful movies by other directors" that Erickson seems to admire.

The implication that somehow OUATITW -- which btw is one of the 5 greatest Westerns of all-time, or perhaps THE GREATEST -- is a ripoff of Johnny Guitar, which btw may be the worst western of all-time, is ludicrous. Yeah, if that loser Leone didn't have the successful movies of other directors to appropriate or unofficially remake, then nobody would have ever even heard of his name, right?  Roll Eyes


I've virtually never read Savant; although after seeing this Johnny Guitar review, I took a glance at his review of OUATITW, and sure enough he writes that OUATITW's "plot follows the basic situation of Johnny Guitar, with Spaghetti trappings added." .. and now that I've just read his entire OUATITW review, I see that Erickson completely misunderstand scenes in that movie, including the sequence of things, wondering if things are out of place, etc. like Alex Cox on the commentary, times ten. Unsurprisingly, he singles out Cox for having done a great job on the commentary, so I guess it takes one confused motherfucker to appreciate another one.


I've hardly ever looked at any previous shit from Erickson. And after reading these reviews (not to mention his ridiculous piece in the bonus features of the DYS dvd which i've discussed elsewhere extensively), that policy won't change. That turd has nothing to offer that would enrich my life as a movie fan

Glenn Erickson is to film critics what Johnny Guitar is to the Western  Roll Eyes

« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 04:54:57 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2012, 04:11:50 PM »

This is drink in a nutshell: a long-winded, obnoxious rant based around puerile pedantry. Never mind that Erickson's review is very complementary of OUATITW (giving it an Excellent rating), let's flay him alive for employing a word Mr. Destroy does not like! Ridiculous.

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« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2012, 04:30:18 PM »

This is drink in a nutshell: a long-winded, obnoxious rant based around puerile pedantry. Never mind that Erickson's review is very complementary of OUATITW (giving it an Excellent rating), let's flay him alive for employing a word Mr. Destroy does not like! Ridiculous.

yes, Erickson sometimes trashes a movie in his review but gives it high official ratings, as he does with OUATIA. But he basically says that, just like OUATITW-Johnny Guitar, Leone made a career of ripping off other movies. That's bullshit.

It's not about "employing a word" I don't like. There's more than his shit on Johnny Guitar, his nonsense about OUATITW (which you yoruself criticized him for regurgitating the crap about the rape scene being out of sequence), OUATIA, DYS

Sorry if you feel bad that I trashed the review that you linked to  Tongue

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« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2012, 04:41:39 PM »

Reading Mr. Savant's actual review of OUATITW I see little that counts as "trashing." He didn't like Cheyenne's death scene - neither did I. His complaint about the music being used too many times is definitely silly but takes up all of a sentence. He briefly notes the similarities to Johnny Guitar and moves on, without comment positive or negative.

Please note as well that the word "rip-off" is your own; Erickson employs it nowhere in either review. Leone certainly did appropriate ideas from other movies. And while many, if not most directors pay homage to favorite films, Leone textured OUATITW around such borrowings. The whole point of the movie is homage to classic Westerns. Why exactly does this upset you? It's not inaccurate. Ungenerously phrased, at worst.

Anyway, I'm sorry that an awkwardly-chosen word by a web critic drove you to frothing, childish insults.

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« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2012, 04:48:40 PM »

Reading Mr. Savant's actual review of OUATITW I see little that counts as "trashing." He didn't like Cheyenne's death scene - neither did I. His complaint about the music being used too many times is definitely silly but takes up all of a sentence. He briefly notes the similarities to Johnny Guitar and moves on, without comment positive or negative.

Please note as well that the word "rip-off" is your own; Erickson employs it nowhere in either review. Leone certainly did appropriate ideas from other movies. And while many, if not most directors pay homage to favorite films, Leone textured OUATITW around such borrowings. The whole point of the movie is homage to classic Westerns. Why exactly does this upset you? It's not inaccurate. Ungenerously phrased, at worst.

Anyway, I'm sorry that an awkwardly-chosen word by a web critic drove you to frothing, childish insults.

Yes, the point of OUATITW is a reference to classic westerns. But that's not appropriation. It's not just a semantic distinction. (Appropriation is what happened with FOD-Yojimbo). Erickson does imply that Leone's cinema was filled with plot lines that are-workings of great works by other people, and that is not true....  "rip-off" is my own word; I'd have put it in quotation marks if I was quoting Erickson. But that sure seems to be his implication.


And it's more than a little amusing to see Groggy criticizing someone for "frothing, childish indults"  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2012, 04:55:41 PM »

Quote
Yes, Erickson implies that Leone's cinema was filled with plot lines that are-workings of great works by other people, and that is not true....

It's certainly incorrect to call OUATITW a "remake" of Johnny Guitar but it's hardly off-base to claim a plot resemblence. The similarities are rather explicit.

Anyway, by pursuing this line of criticism you miss the point. Erickson argues that Leone's main strengths are style and aesthetic. That he cribs story ideas, whether entire plots or a patchwork of borrowed scenes, from other movies is undeniable. Aside from GBU I don't think the story is any Leone film's main strength (and even there it's questionable). It's what he does with them that's important, which is what Erickson was saying.

Quote
And it's more than a little amusing to see Groggy criticizing someone for "frothing, childish indults"

Have I ever called you a "motherfucker" or a "turd"?

« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 04:58:24 PM by Groggy » Logged


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