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Author Topic: How good is DYS?  (Read 38888 times)
stanton
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« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2008, 02:16:58 AM »


Stanton, as Groggy said already, the inclusion of the torture sequence would only ruin the surprise of Villega's betrayal.

And if the desert scene were left standing in the picture it would clear up the glaring continuity error of Mallory's chapped lips and dehydration during the church seen as well as clear up his motivation wanting to kill Juan's family (revenge).

I personally think the revelation of Villega's betrayal does not need necessarily to be a surprise.

The even better idea would have been to present the torture scene later in a flashback. It would make Villega a more likeable character and would give his death more depth.

The miserable condition of Sean in the Aschenbach sequence is explained now by alcohol abuse, which is for me the better idea. The Aschenbach sequence is fine by me as part of the picture.

The marks of the desert scene are now, like the marks of Harmonica's beating in OuTW, only a small but forgettable continuity error. I have never thought about them before knowing about the desert scene.

And you need not to explain everything. Many claim that we need the cave scene to know where Tuco got his 3 henchman in GBU. Do we?  We don't need to know where Tuco got 3 men which are already killed in the next scene.

What is important about this scene is instead, what has the scene to tell us about Tuco? For me not enough to justify its inclusion in a rather long film.

Every film needs a balance to work perfectly, and if a film gets too long (or too short) it looses this balance.
I still say the whole beginning of DYS up to the arrival in Mesa Verde should have been made in a more concentrated way.
And I would like to see the desert scene, but like the cave scene in GBU and Harmonica's "rise from the death" at the railway station in OuTW, never as integral part of the movie.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 12:19:45 PM by stanton » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2008, 10:41:18 AM »



The miserable condition of Sean in the Aschenbach sequence is explained now by alcohol abuse, which is for me the better idea.

The marks of the desert scene are now, like the marks of Harmonica's beating in OuTW, only a small but forgettable continuity error. I have never thought about them before knowing about the desert scene.

And you need not to explain everything. Many claim that we need the cave scene to know where Tuco got his 3 henchman in GBU. Do we?  We don't need to know where Tuco got 3 men which are already killed in the next scene.

What is important about this scene is instead, what does the scene has to tell us about Tuco? For me not enough to justify it's inclusion in a rather long film.

yep!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2008, 12:49:27 PM »

Thanks

When i first saw the film - the 2:18 version- I always assumed that Sean was in mexico to help the Revolution*


Easy to fall into that trap since Mallory seems to know (somehow) where the revolutionaries secret hiding place is.

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« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2008, 01:59:10 PM »


Easy to fall into that trap since Mallory seems to know (somehow) where the revolutionaries secret hiding place is.
Good point FC. Did Mallory accidentally come across them at the restaurant Huh?

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Groggy
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« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2008, 06:19:35 AM »

So, stanton. You say this:

I personally think the revelation of Villega's betrayal does not need necessarily to be a surprise.

The even better idea would have been to present the torture scene later in a flashback. It would make Villega a more likeable character and would give his death more depth.

But then later say this:

Quote
And you need not to explain everything.

Contradiction perhaps? Why do you think the torture scene should be in but not the desert scene?

« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 06:40:55 AM by Groggy » Logged


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stanton
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« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2008, 09:33:52 AM »

As I said in the sentence you have quoted, it would make Villega a more likeable character and would give his death more depth. The fact that he was tortured is already evident in DYS without showing it. I wouldn't vote for the torture scene, because this scene explains something, but because I think the film somehow needs it in an emotional way.

And I think the desert scene would make a film longer, which is already a bit too long in this part.
If the only reason to include the desert scene is to explain Sean's chapped lips or his miserable condition, then I think it would hurt the film. The scene must contain something else, something new about Sean and Juan, but I doubt that similar to the grotto scene in GBU, there will be something interesting enough to justify it's inclusion. Of course, we would have to see both scenes, as for now we are only speculating. Leone surely had his reasons to skip both.

But I think my previous post made all this already clear.

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« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2008, 07:52:09 PM »


If the only reason to include the desert scene is to explain Sean's chapped lips or his miserable condition

And his motivation to murder Juan and co. in cold blood.

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« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2008, 06:38:10 AM »

That doesn't seem very convincing to me, sorry. Not everything needs to be explicit. Leone knew this and used it to great effect; would OUATITW have been better if we'd seen the gunfight between Cheyenne and Frank's gangs at Morton's train?

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stanton
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« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2008, 08:58:47 AM »

That doesn't seem very convincing to me, sorry. Not everything needs to be explicit. Leone knew this and used it to great effect; would OUATITW have been better if we'd seen the gunfight between Cheyenne and Frank's gangs at Morton's train?

Are you talking to me or FC?

But no, I never wanted to see this gunfight. It was one of the great ideas of OuTW not to show the biggest shoot out of the film.

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« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2008, 11:08:18 AM »

THERE  ARE scenes that are filmed and never included in any version of a film (outtakes); there are scenes  shot  and cut from the film after previews;  and there are scenes distributors and/or censors cut. (but you all know that).


Only the LAST should be part of any restoration.

The  DYS desert scene was not intended for the film so why include it?
In the case of GBU, the grotto scene only appeared in the film during PREVIEW screenings as far as i can determine) it was decided then that it was not essential and dropped. Same with Tuco's beating. It was too long and edited down (thank s god it and the Siccorro scene didn't survive inract or MGM would have put them in the 'restored' version- ten minutes of Tuco being beat up, tha't entertainment!).

And, of course there are those scenes that were shot and included in SOME versions and not others. The Harmonica rises from the dead for example.
I have seen versions with it and without it. I 'll be damned if I know whatto do with that one> LOL!

merry x-mas bandidos Smiley

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« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2008, 11:20:55 AM »

Good point FC. Did Mallory accidentally come across them at the restaurant Huh?


I still think Sean was originally part of the band of revolutionaries and then quit in disillusionment.
it is the only scenario that explains how he knew Villega and co.

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« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2008, 02:58:35 PM »

That doesn't seem very convincing to me, sorry. Not everything needs to be explicit. Leone knew this and used it to great effect; would OUATITW have been better if we'd seen the gunfight between Cheyenne and Frank's gangs at Morton's train?
Yes.

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« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2008, 03:01:58 PM »

I still think Sean was originally part of the band of revolutionaries and then quit in disillusionment.
it is the only scenario that explains how he knew Villega and co.
The IRA was a band of revolutionaries. He and Villega are fellow travelers, and would have known each other through the Old Boy Molotov-Throwers Net.

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« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2008, 05:00:45 PM »

Except neither the IRA nor Molotov Cocktails existed at that time. Cheesy

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« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2008, 06:24:22 PM »

And your point is . . . ?

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