Cinema Detective Question - El Paso Archived Newspaper Binder

[cigar joe]

Groggy & I were discussing the dates in the Archived Newspaper Binder in For A Few Dollars More,  Mortimer sees article about Manco gunning down what we are assuming are the wanted men in White Rocks, the date is 1873, now the binder that the newspaper is in may give us a clue as to when the film actually takes place either in or sometime post 1873. 

We see Mortimer looking in the binder, we see a front page he flips a few pages and then he gets to the front page he's looking for about Manco.  If the article is in the middle of the binder then quite a bit of time has passed since White Rocks, if its near the end then its more recent, need screen capwizards to post images!

[Groggy]

Whoa! Monco operated in New Mexico, Texas AND Montana? The dude gets around...

[cigar joe]

Thanks A1 you are indespensible!

This is now a whole new can of worms.

Look at the thickness of that binder!

I always assumed the front page halftone image was from White Rocks now it looks like the Marton Brothers were killed in Red Hill Montana like Groggy says Manco got around!  And it was back in 1872.

If he finds Manco at the center of that binder that means the last page of the archive would bring us to the present day.  At four to six pages per issue thats a lot of papers and assuming that in a place like El Paso they didn't published every day that binder can represent years. Which would make sense.

We know that on May 19, 1881: Southern Pacific tracks reach El Paso, Texas, and that " The Rock Island continued its trek westward and soon added "Pacific" to then end of its name as a final destination goal. A line to Colorado Springs was completed in 1888 and trackage rights to Denver was acquired in 1889. A line southwest across Kansas stretched to Tucumcari by the mid-1890s and a connection was completed with the Southern Pacific, thus completing the Pacific goal."

If we go by these clues The archive binder and the historical record for the railroads (the key is railroads in both Tucumcari & El Paso) "For a Few Dollars More" could take place as late as the mid 1890's which would put it closer in time to "A Fistful of Dollars".

 

[Noodles_SlowStir]

I couldn't make out any of the dates on the papers by trying to zoom in.  The only thing for sure was Monday and June.
If by the link, it is in fact June 23, then it would have to be 1873 or 1879 (only years that date would be a Monday).

Pretty cool Albert Grimaldi is the editor of the paper.  I wouldn't have picked up on that but for the link.  Thanks  .
Also I think the brothers that Manco kills may be Mortons.  Which would be kind of interesting because the name Morton would be used again in OUATITW.

One concern I would have is Manco's age.  We know that Colonel Mortimer is almost 50 years old.....so he's in his late forties coming on fifty.  Manco as the young man, I took to be in his thirties.  If in the paper he's maybe 20 in the early 1870's, he'd  have to be in his forties in 1890 something.

[Groggy]

Yeah, I was going to ask on the other thread CJ if you believed that FOD and FAFDM were related to each other. If this is the case, perhaps they would be (in some way, however indirect).

[cigar joe]

Yeah, I was going to ask on the other thread CJ if you believed that FOD and FAFDM were related to each other. If this is the case, perhaps they would be (in some way, however indirect).

I just think of them as campfire stories, legends about a stranger, a cigar smoking, pancho wearing, con artist stranger, who may or may not be the same guy, he probably is but when the stories are told around the fire in our minds eye he never ages and that's what we see on the screen.

I just watched For A Few Dollars More a few minutes ago and at 1:56 or there abouts Groggy hands Indio back his gun and in a close up you can see it has gutta percha grips. Colt began selling SSA's with gutta pecha grips in the 1884 catalog. Another piece of the puzzle.

[Noodles_SlowStir]

I like your analogy of flickering images around a campfire or a visual campfire, with cinematic images.   

[dave jenkins]

Agreed, that works well. And I think CJ is spot on with his legend-of-the-man-with-many-names conceit. The general outline of the character is always present in the various tellings, but the details and chronology can shift in ways that introduce "contradictions" into the tradition.

[iceman]

Hi Guys,
              Can anyone work out which town (set)  the photo was taken in... ie San Miguel or El Paso. I assume it must have been one or the other??

ICE

ps... noticed San Antonio mission gets a mention as well....

[dave jenkins]

The consensus that seems to be emerging on this thread is that FAFDM is set during the 1890s, correct?

[Groggy]

The consensus that seems to be emerging on this thread is that FAFDM is set during the 1890s, correct?

I have no opinion.

[cigar joe]

I would say at the earliest 1885, but Tucumcari is not accurate therewas a Tucumcari Butte, and a Tucumcari Creek it wasn't a town until 1901, of the two nearby settlements Ft. Bascomb was abandoned in 1870 and a town called Liberty actually moved lock stock & barrel about 3 miles to the Tucumcari siding to add to the railroad camp the eventually became the town.

Leone & Crew must have just picked a cool sounding name off a map of New Mexico.

[dave jenkins]

I would say at the earliest 1885

Okay, and the latest date possible would be . . . ?

[cigar joe]

Musical pocket watches began to be made in 1865 in Sainte-Croix Switzerland by Cahrles Reuge. That would bracket the events of the film between post 1865 for the flashback and post 1884 for the shootout at Agua Caliente.

As far as latest date, we have to work things backwards, Mortimer says he reached almost 50 years of age with his system. If we assume he was a Confederate Colonel and we took the date 1885 he would have been 25 in 1860 by 1865, 30  so he would have been a young Col. , that is credible there was:

Brigadier General Robert F. Hoke CSA, a native of Lincolnton, NC who distinguished himself serving under General Robert E. Lee. Hoke was the hero of the Battle of Plymouth. He entered the service as a lieutenant and was promoted to a major within 5 months, a Lt. Colonel within 9 months, a Colonel within 16 months, a Brigadier General within two years, and a Major General within 3 years of his enlistment-making him at the age of 26 the youngest Confederate officer of that rank in the Civil War.

If he was not a Confederate Colonel then he may have been one of those southern plantaion honorary type colonels, probably rich with extensive land holdings in the Carolinas, known as the "best shot in the Carolinas" and able to buy expensive Swiss musical pocket watches for his sister & her betrothed.  If we assume the latter then we could push it closer to the turn of the century.

We'd have to reach a consensus, or find more clues. For example take Mortimers style of dress, research the duster, the frock coat, the hat, his necktie

Anyway a quick check of history of the necktie comes up with this:

In 1880, the rowing club at Oxford University's Exeter College One men's club, invented the first school tie by removing their ribbon hat bands from their boater hats and tying them, four-in-hand. When they ordered a set of ties, with the colors from their hatbands, they had created the modern school tie. School, club, and athletic ties appeared in abundance. Some schools had different ties for various grades, levels of achievement, and for graduates.

So Mortimers tie would be post 1880 (how long would the fashion take to get to America?).

[dave jenkins]

Not long.

Great work, CJ. You da man!