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: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?  ( 20367 )
drinkanddestroy
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« #45 : August 24, 2017, 07:32:58 AM »

I'm listening to an Interview Eastwood gave to a French radio station about 20 years ago, where he talks about it. He says they weren't allowed to do it on Rawhide.

The list of things they couldn't do on Rawhide that Leone could do (because he was "an unkown Italian") is shortly after the 1 hour 38 minutes mark in the podcast:

https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/les-nuits-de-france-culture/clint-eastwood-jai-ete-lhomme-de-nulle-part-pendant-45-ans
 

Eastwood mentions this frequently. Is it possible that it was a TV rule rather than a movie rule? Then again, as noted above, Arthur Penn clearly says it was a rule under the "studio system." So at some point, the rule did apply to movies as well;  perhaps television was more strict in enforcing it, or perhaps the rule was followed in television long after movies had stopped following it.


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« #46 : April 04, 2018, 12:11:12 PM »

A video by Firecracker that busts this myth with several pre-1964 examples of shooter and shootee in the same frame:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj0gc9e6Qbc




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« #47 : April 04, 2018, 01:15:21 PM »

Excellent!  O0 O0 O0



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« #48 : April 04, 2018, 01:22:44 PM »

well that takes care of that..... O0


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« #49 : April 05, 2018, 03:49:20 AM »

So, if it ever was a rule in American cinema, it was already broken in the mid 30s.


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« #50 : April 05, 2018, 07:01:11 AM »

s it possible that it was a TV rule rather than a movie rule? Then again, as noted above, Arthur Penn clearly says it was a rule under the "studio system." So at some point, the rule did apply to movies as well;  perhaps television was more strict in enforcing it, or perhaps the rule was followed in television long after movies had stopped following it.

That's probably the gist of it.

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« #51 : April 05, 2018, 10:57:31 AM »

That's probably the gist of it.

However some of the clips were from TV Westerns.


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« #52 : April 05, 2018, 11:40:48 AM »

It probably was never a rule.


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« #53 : April 05, 2018, 12:02:03 PM »

Industry Standards and Practices could be augmented by the desires of individual sponsors. A sponsor might signal that it wanted a low-violence Western and the client would accede to this by doing any number of things (including separating shooter and shootee in shots). Such a practice would then become a "rule" for that show only.

I just made this up, but it sounds plausible to me.



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« #54 : April 05, 2018, 12:39:33 PM »

Industry Standards and Practices could be augmented by the desires of individual sponsors. A sponsor might signal that it wanted a low-violence Western and the client would accede to this by doing any number of things (including separating shooter and shootee in shots). Such a practice would then become a "rule" for that show only.

I just made this up, but it sounds plausible to me.

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« #55 : April 05, 2018, 07:11:18 PM »

It probably was never a rule.

It was probably one of those "unwritten rules" - not mandatory but often expected

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« #56 : April 06, 2018, 02:15:01 AM »

It was probably one of those "unwritten rules" - not mandatory but often expected

If there were written or unwritten rules, they surely were made in the Hays Code Days. But if cheap westerns had then already broken them in 1935, I doubt that that was ever really a rule. The funny question is now if Rawhide also contains scenes which contradict ole Clint.


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« #57 : April 06, 2018, 04:37:29 AM »

The funny question is now if Rawhide also contains scenes which contradict ole Clint.
That would be the clincher, but I'm guessing "No."



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« #58 : April 06, 2018, 07:00:31 AM »

A video by Firecracker that busts this myth with several pre-1964 examples of shooter and shootee in the same frame:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj0gc9e6Qbc

I think Eastwood was talking about Rawhide guidelines.

Watched the YouTube video, and by the way, the clip from Man Who Shot Liberty Valance shows apparent shooter Jimmy Stewart shooting Lee Marvin, not real shooter Wayne.

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« #59 : April 07, 2018, 07:56:14 AM »

In one interview Clint said that Sergio Leone didn't know about the Hays code, he didn't tell Leone and he seemed to be trying to take partial credit for the success of the dollars movies because of this.

Personally I find some of this absurd.  Leone loved movies and had great knowledge of their history including the Hollywood classics.  I doubt very much whether Clint and Leone had very many long meaningful discussions about film production or censorship.

Clint didn't need to do this. He was a tall good-looking charismatic guy whose involvement with the dollars movies undoubtedly contributed to their success.

Censorship in movies and TV is of course different. To get a movie shown in most theaters, it had to have approval under the Motion Picture Production Code, popularly known as the Hays Code. The code has been amended from time to time but as I understand it the official documents never contained a written instruction that there had to be cut between shooter and shootee. With regard to killing and murder the code just said:

a. The technique of murder must be presented in a way that will not inspire imitation.
b. Brutal killings are not to be presented in detail.
c. Revenge in modern times shall not be justified.

Once a movie had been made, it was submitted to the censors for approval who would view the movie and itemize any parts which they felt broke the code. It was then down to individual negotiations between the makers of the movie and the censors.

With TV it's different. The broadcaster has no control on who is viewing the material so consideration needs to be given to what time of day the item is being shown, whether the the channel is open to the public or private and the broadcaster's own standards.

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