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iceman
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« on: July 28, 2008, 04:07:36 PM »

After the battle what would have happened to all the bodies left lying around. Would they not have been taken by the surviving troops and buried (sad hill). And what happened with the battle, did they just all go back to their main camps and who won..

ICE..an Englishman who knows nothing about the Civil War

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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2008, 04:18:11 PM »

The movie exists in a fantasy world, so such questions are immaterial.

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cigar joe
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2008, 07:27:37 PM »

Well there were burial details sent out after battles under flags of truce.

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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2008, 08:49:44 PM »

No idea of what happened to the bodies, but if you have a look at the graves in Sad Hill they all are identical in size (like they have been  made for the movie with a mould) and it appears they all were made at the same time. Also, even in the event it was very hot in Sad Hill, I cannot see how Arch Stanton's body could have decomposed so fast, to the point that there are no traces of flesh attached to his (her, actually  Wink) skeleton.

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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2008, 10:11:56 PM »

A very shallow grave & look up flesh eating & carpet beatles and think over a year of time.

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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2008, 10:20:05 PM »

Well, I have never tried  Grin but they must be very hungry flesh-eating beetles the ones you are talking about.   Shocked

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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2008, 10:38:52 PM »

I think in most cases the victor on the particular battlefield did see to the burials.  Unfortunately, a lot of times it didn't serve the other side too well.   They were either buried in mass graves or not at all.  Not sure if the surrounding towns had to get involved when they were not buried at all. 

The current president of Harvard, historian Drew Gilpin Faust,  wrote a book on the subject called This Republic Of Suffering.  It came out earlier in the year.  I've not read it.  Here's an article about the book which also talks a little bit about the catastrophe of burial and identification of Civil War casualties.

http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/war-faust-most-1967929-dead-civil       

« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 10:41:34 PM by Noodles_SlowStir » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2008, 03:54:35 PM »

I think in most cases the victor on the particular battlefield did see to the burials.  Unfortunately, a lot of times it didn't serve the other side too well.   They were either buried in mass graves or not at all.  Not sure if the surrounding towns had to get involved when they were not buried at all. 

The current president of Harvard, historian Drew Gilpin Faust,  wrote a book on the subject called This Republic Of Suffering.  It came out earlier in the year.  I've not read it.  Here's an article about the book which also talks a little bit about the catastrophe of burial and identification of Civil War casualties.

http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/war-faust-most-1967929-dead-civil       

That certainly answered my question...thanks

ICE

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dave jenkins
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2008, 05:02:58 PM »


The current president of Harvard, historian Drew Gilpin Faust,  wrote a book on the subject called This Republic Of Suffering.  It came out earlier in the year.  I've not read it.  Here's an article about the book which also talks a little bit about the catastrophe of burial and identification of Civil War casualties.

http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/war-faust-most-1967929-dead-civil       
Sounds like an interesting book, the review certainly has some pertinent comments:
Quote
Bodies were buried in churchyards, by the side of the road, outside hospitals, on the battlefield, sometimes not at all Ė the victors often left the enemy dead where they fell. Burial was, Faust says, an "act of improvisation."

Those who wanted the consolation of their loved one's body usually had to travel to the battlefield themselves and engage the services of embalmers and other agents to ship it home, if they could find it.

Such communication as there was with those back home usually came in the form of a kind of stylized correspondence Ė quoted at length by Faust Ė from the deceased's officers or friends. Sometimes word never came at all.

The story has a (relatively) happy ending. Survivors found undocumented, unconfirmed and unrecognized loss "intolerable." At war's end both sides, using muster rolls, letters and lists compiled by concerned colleagues, and interviews with survivors, went out to reclaim the army of the dead, identifying the fallen, where possible, and interring them in national cemeteries.
What then to make of Sad Hill, not merely atypical, apparently, but surreal? A case of Leone exercising poetic license perhaps. Elsewhere in GBU there are moments that seem to transcend the American Civil War, that point to other horrific events of the modern world: the Betterville Camp Band who evoke the Jewish musicians forced to perform at Auschwitz; the Union fortifications at Langston Bridge that bring to mind the entrenchments of WWI. Sad Hill, then, is not merely a cemetery, it is emblematic of all who have fallen in the century that roughly preceded the making of the film. And it is the archetypal City of the Dead, the underworld to which our heroes must descend in their quest for treasure, and from which there is little hope of return.

NB: I should point out that Peter E. Bondanella, in Italian Cinema: From Neorealism to the Present, makes the very same points regarding Leone's allusions to, respectively, WWII and WWI (http://tiny.cc/here817 ).

« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 05:22:49 PM by dave jenkins » Logged


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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2008, 04:01:52 PM »

Found a couple of interesting links.  This first one is from a site called the Encyclopedia of Death and Dying.  Iíve not seen this site before nor do I know too much about the site creator, Advameg, Inc (other than they seem to have a lot of reference sites and advertising probably is one of their motives).  The articles on the Civil War seem pretty well written.  Itís documented well also (Faust is cited in the bibliography along with James M. McPherson, Richard Slotkin and other historians).  The section Disposing Of The Dead goes into quite a bit of detail. 
http://www.deathreference.com/Ce-Da/Civil-War-U-S.html

This was another interesting site. It has a lot of photos from the Civil War.  One of the photo categories is Casualties.  On the left are numerous other categories for photos concerning other aspects of the Civil War.
http://www.civilwarphotos.net/files/casualties.htm

Quote
Sounds like an interesting book, the review certainly has some pertinent comments
Faustís book does look interesting.  I think Iím going to add it to my library list.  There are some mixed reviews on Amazon by readers. 
This is a link to an excerpt from This Republic Of Suffering that was in the book section of the Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/thisrepublicofsuffering.htm

I also found out that there was sort of a publication race.  Another author had a book on the same subject matter released in May of this year.  The name of that book is Awaiting The Heavenly Country: The Civil War and America's Culture of Death by Mark S. Schantz.

What then to make of Sad Hill, not merely atypical, apparently, but surreal? A case of Leone exercising poetic license perhaps. Elsewhere in GBU there are moments that seem to transcend the American Civil War, that point to other horrific events of the modern world: the Betterville Camp Band who evoke the Jewish musicians forced to perform at Auschwitz; the Union fortifications at Langston Bridge that bring to mind the entrenchments of WWI. Sad Hill, then, is not merely a cemetery, it is emblematic of all who have fallen in the century that roughly preceded the making of the film. And it is the archetypal City of the Dead, the underworld to which our heroes must descend in their quest for treasure, and from which there is little hope of return.

NB: I should point out that Peter E. Bondanella, in Italian Cinema: From Neorealism to the Present, makes the very same points regarding Leone's allusions to, respectively, WWII and WWI (http://tiny.cc/here817 ).

Iím not quite sure whether the studies on the treatment of Civil War dead would make Sad Hill totally unlikely.  It seems the information indicates that burial could be specific to the location and circumstances as well.  I donít think we know enough information.  I donít think we know how long the armies have been at a standoff at the bridge.  Although their attentions would continue to be focused on the battles and strategy of taking the bridge, maybe they would of had more time than certain other battlegrounds where both armies had to continue onward.  We donít know too much about the history of the cemetery. Definitely seems like it had a history of being there before the conflict at the bridge.  There were stone grave markers there as well.   I suppose youíre right it does seem atypical with the information found.

Another thing I was thinking about was that in 1862, a lot of the National Cemeteries were beginning to be established. Some with initial burials from the War.
http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hist/datesest.asp
Maybe Sad Hill is an allusion to this.


 
I definitely would agree with your thoughts of Sad Hill possibly being another allusion to the World Wars.  I think the sight of that cemetery as Blondie and Tuco survey the area conjures the same visions of the cemeteries of Europe for the fallen of those Wars.

I very much agree that Sad Hill is representative of a mythic place or a surreal  underworld as you say.  I  really liked how you expressed your thoughts on that.
 
Iíve actually been thinking about this quite a bit since reading and posting in the thread concerning cemeteries on the AFOD board.  I posted that I thought the cemetery location had a lot to do with plot details.  Itís obvious over all the films, (also written about by Frayling and many others), that cemeteries, coffins, resurrection and death are recurring themes throughout SLís films.  There are times that these things may have significance as religious references.  Iíve been thinking about the connection between rivers (possibly other bodies of water ) and cemeteries and death.  Would you consider rivers to be a mythic symbol of the underworld?  (Iím thinking along the lines of how mirrors were used as a gateway to the underworld by Cocteau in Orphee.  Then of course afterward other directors made reference to Cocteau).  I keep thinking that connection in many of the films absolutely puts a more mythic frame on quite a few of these references. Thereís a bridge and a river that separates Blondie and Tuco from entry to Sad Hill.  I think you could possibly speak to that more than I could because I think your knowledge of mythic symbols and detail is more extensive than mine.  I'm sure your thoughts could help me think ahead on it too.

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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2008, 04:31:08 PM »

Also, even in the event it was very hot in Sad Hill, I cannot see how Arch Stanton's body could have decomposed so fast, to the point that there are no traces of flesh attached to his (her, actually  Wink) skeleton.

A very shallow grave & look up flesh eating & carpet beatles and think over a year of time.

I agree with CJ.  The other thing I was thinking after reading some articles, is that the bodies were often not buried right away.  They were lying on the ground sometimes for days on end.  This definitely would advance the decomposition.  It also would leave the bodies open to other exposure possibilities.  Check out this photo of an African American burial detail.  I'm not sure if the bodies had been out for a long period of time or they had been in shallow graves and were being reburied.

http://www.civilwarphotos.net/files/images/770.jpg

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« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2008, 02:06:36 PM »


Iíve actually been thinking about this quite a bit since reading and posting in the thread concerning cemeteries on the AFOD board.  I posted that I thought the cemetery location had a lot to do with plot details.  Itís obvious over all the films, (also written about by Frayling and many others), that cemeteries, coffins, resurrection and death are recurring themes throughout SLís films.  There are times that these things may have significance as religious references.  Iíve been thinking about the connection between rivers (possibly other bodies of water ) and cemeteries and death.  Would you consider rivers to be a mythic symbol of the underworld?  (Iím thinking along the lines of how mirrors were used as a gateway to the underworld by Cocteau in Orphee.  Then of course afterward other directors made reference to Cocteau).  I keep thinking that connection in many of the films absolutely puts a more mythic frame on quite a few of these references. Thereís a bridge and a river that separates Blondie and Tuco from entry to Sad Hill.  I think you could possibly speak to that more than I could because I think your knowledge of mythic symbols and detail is more extensive than mine.  I'm sure your thoughts could help me think ahead on it too.
Hey, these are some very interesting thoughts. I don't know why the river in GBU has never struck me as a symbol before, because you're right, it is an obvious threshold to the place of the dead. And in ancient Greek mythology, one had to cross the river Styx to get to the underworld; even now, in gospel and folk traditions, the idea of "crossing the Jordan", another river, is tied to ideas of death and the afterlife.

And the river battle puts the idea across beautifully, since living men must come to the river before "crossing over" to the land of the dead. Maybe the bridge explosion is also symbolic: Tuco and Blondie shut the door to the underworld, so that no one but themselves can pass through. Of course, they, and AE, can always go across: each has something to do with death.

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« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2008, 02:40:20 PM »

or it could be justa great place ta blow up a brigde- thy do go ovr water mos a th time

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dave jenkins
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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2008, 02:44:37 PM »

But they all don't lead to cemeteries.

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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2008, 03:40:50 PM »

probly wasnt a cemetery to begin wit Dave, jus anothr weed patch

bt thy were fightin over th bridge fr so long, an killd so many, thy had to bury em somwhere

thy prob had a cemetery on both sides

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