LEONE and PECKINPAH

[COLONNA]

I don't know if Sergio and Sam were friends or if even they met each other but there were some coincidences between those two great Directors:

Sam realized some westerns in a different tone, when western movies were out of fashion.Sergio too

Sam realized a " Mexican Civil War " western "The Wild Bunch "  and Sergio too (DYS)

Sam Realized gangster movies Sergio too
Sam realized a Second World War Movie " Iron Cross" and Sergio projected another one "Leningrad".

Like great artists they shared influences and vision .Both were great fans of Ford.

Both died too early (Sam at  59) due to heart disease .

Both suffered because their films were cutted by distributors or producers ( Dundee, OUATIA)    

[KERMIT]

I don't know if Sergio and Sam were friends or if even they met each other but there were some coincidences between those two great Directors:

Sam realized some westerns in a different tone, when western movies were out of fashion.Sergio too

Sam realized a " Mexican Civil War " western "The Wild Bunch "  and Sergio too (DYS)

Sam Realized gangster movies Sergio too
Sam realized a Second World War Movie " Iron Cross" and Sergio projected another one "Leningrad".

Like great artists they shared influences and vision .Both were great fans of Ford.

Both died too early (Sam at  59) due to heart disease .

Both suffered because their films were cutted by distributors or producers ( Dundee, OUATIA)    

leone had more tricks up his sleeve and kept his cards closer. sam , to me, relied a little to much on guys getting shot, acres of blood, & far to many slow-motion shots which had just become popular after the "bonnie & clyde" ambush sequence.  when leone's guys get shot, i don't see so much blood gushing as they spin around as delli colli puts it, increasing the action & relying far less on camera tricks.  when tuco shoots the one armed bounty hunter it's like a ballet.  much more finesse & imagination. but that's just my opinion. i'm on treacherous ground just comparing these two directors.      once again COLONNA.  excelent observations.  

[Angel Eyes]

if you read Peckinpahs' biography you will notice that there is not one mention of Leone, which I thought was strange as the two shared many similarities

[COLONNA]

Kerm, Angel Eyes, you are right.

In fact "What opinion Sergio had about himself ?"  could be a good quote.

I'm sure that Sergio has suffered about his own image

  - What was his importance within the Italian Movie at this time , which was very brilliant ( Pasolini, Visconti, Ferreri, Antonioni..)

  - idem  within the American Movie , French Movie...,Japanes

Peckinpah didn't say a word about him, Melville declared"I dont like Sergio Leone, Kubrick absolutely ignored him.


I mean that till OUATIA ,Leone success was a popular success but Spagh was considered as B Movie.

Happily minds are changing.i

What your feeling about ?  

[deMaie]

Hi

I don't know but my guess is that these two men were
never in the same part of the world working wise.

I imagine that in the 60's and 70's, Peckinpah was doing
movies after movies in one location or another, so it is
not surprising to me for them never meeting.
On a personnal level, would either of them had much to
say to the other. I mean, they were not students
looking forward to compare notes or anything.

Even right now, I often hear that two well known
actors in their aged years have never met, and they
say that we are in the communication millenium.

Sure, it would make feel good to know that they
respected each other works and all, just a wish.

Can someone tell me of one main actor that as
appeared in both of these directors movies?

[COLONNA]

Hi

I don't know but my guess is that these two men were
never in the same part of the world working wise.

Sure deMaie, but Sergio began to work in USA for OUTIW and met some people: Carpenter, Millius... I 'm wondering if "the profession" was not  a little bit snob with him except Clint, Eli ( who convinced Henry), Lee..

However I think that Sergio well knew Sam Peckinpah work and was a fan ("the wild bunch" in My name is..."  

[Jayson Kennedy]

However I think that Sergio well knew Sam Peckinpah work and was a fan ("the wild bunch" in My name is..."  

Also Peckinpah's name is on a tombstone in Nobody

Never really been a fan of The Wild Bunch, found Straw Dogs to be much more meaningful.  

[COLONNA]

Never really been a fan of The Wild Bunch, found Straw Dogs to be much more meaningful.  

Jayson, you speak about a film with Dustin Hofmann versus Irish machos ?
I never liked it, it seems to me an easy apology of self defence: " please rape my wife,so I could KILL EVERYBODY ."

IMO , " The Getaway" is a great film from a great novel.  

[Angel Eyes]

Can someone tell me of one main actor that as
appeared in both of these directors movies?

Coburn I think.

I think most of Sams' films are brilliant, his bad films (apart from the odd exception) were only bad after the studios finished with them.

The Ballad of Cable Hogue was a brilliant and hilarious film, in fact Robards also worked with both directors.

[Blueberry]

Peckinpah was meant to have directed "Deliverance" instead of John Boorman, I think, and there are theories that "Straw Dogs" is his following version of the "Culture vs. Nature" theme. Also here you have the local rednecks confronting the urban way of life.

Especially "Deliverance" tells us: this is what happens when you come out here with your "city-folk"-attitude. Excellent movie, by the way.

The theme is parallelled in OUATIW, isn't it?

[COLONNA]

Delivrance is a great film, I agree.

But I 'm wondering about the mean of the word "nature"
I remember that Dustin 's woman was sodomized in Straw Dogs and the poor fat guy also in Delivrance ,screaming like a pig.

is it so "Nature" ? May be I prefer Culture in this case.

[deMaie]

Angel Eyes, thank you for reminding me of James
Coburn.
Major Dundee, Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid, Cross of
Iron , for Peckinpah.
And Once Upon a Time a Revolution for Leone.

And Jason Robards were in both Peckinpah and Leone
movies.

I just don't know what really appeals to me about
Peckinpah's movies. I could't care less if all his films
would play 3-4 hours. I have never seen any on big
screens, just TV.

The Getaway, the Wild Bunch and Cross of Iron took
a couple of times to really be impressed.
Major Dundee and Straw Dogs I liked the 1st time.

I have to find me a book on Peckinpah.

That is my rambling of the day  

[Angel Eyes]

deMaie
I have a great book on Peckinpah, cant remember what it's called or who it's by, but I think it's a BFI book, I'll have a look for it, it's a great read.

[The Hunchback]

The best Peckinpah biography:
"If They Move...  Kill 'Em!" by David Weddle


The best critical look at the films of Peckinpah (westerns only):
Peckinpah: The Western Film - A Reconsideration by Paul Seydor


In comparing Leone and Peckinpah, I view their films as being very different.  They both breathed new life into the western film, but did so in very different manners.  Leone films are more painterly and visual, while Peckinpah's film are more literary and cerebral.  Before anyone jumps on me, yes, Peckinpah is very visual too and, yes, Leone and also intellectual, but I do not believe that was the main emphasis of their efforts or necessarily what we remember them for.

[mothman]

Sure deMaie, but Sergio began to work in USA for OUTIW and met some people: Carpenter, Millius... I 'm wondering if "the profession" was not  a little bit snob with him except Clint, Eli ( who convinced Henry), Lee..

yea, also a reminder, Henry and Charles (Bronson)  were offered the role of Joe before Clint.

Bronson was also offered the roles of Tuco and Angel Eyes.... (Which was originally Van Cleef, but was reconsidered for a short time because Leone thought the audience would have a problem with seeing Van Cleef go from a mentor type character to a vicious bad guy, after Bronson turned them both down Van Cleef got the role back)