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Author Topic: Rate The Last Movie You Saw  (Read 1758856 times)
drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #11595 on: February 24, 2013, 05:34:32 PM »

Thanks for the videos drink. I watched the Dershowitz interview - really cool. Afro

As for the movie, I was pleasantly surprised how it handled the case. Granted it was from Dershowitz's POV, but it easily could have gone the "Claus was a rich bastard who got away with it" route. Certainly what reading I've done on the case slants that way. Well, Claus was/is a rich bastard but so was Sunny. And there's a perfectly plausible alternative theory which the movie shows (though doesn't explicitly endorse). It's a very difficult case but a fascinating one. I may try and track down Dershowitz's book between TEL readings.

Personally, I don't have any problem with someone just cuz he/she is rich. If someone can afford to pay great lawyers to investigate a case (and he had all those Harvard law students doung all that research), I don't resent that any more than a rich person being able to afford paying a top doctor and living longer than a poor person would have with the same disease cuz of great medical care. I'd love it if the poor person was able to have access to the same care and I feel terrible if someone dies due to being unable to access good care, but that doesn't mean I should resent the rich person for being able to afford it. And Dershowitz makes that exact point. That if von Bulow was able to afford a top-notch defense that exonerated him (if he was innocent), the sad thing is that a poor innocent person in the same situation may never have been able to afford that and may be sitting jail. what can you do, life is tough when you don't have money. But I don't hodl it against someone in any way if he/she is rich and can afford the best legal team, just as I wouldn't hold it against a rich person who could afford the best doctors, the best food, or house.

When Dershowitz said he dislikes the lifestyle and he wouldn't have been allowed to join it, it seems to me that he is implying a "Gentleman's Agreement" type of situation that wouldn't have allowed Jews to be there. Just a guess, it seems to me that that is the implication.

As for Sunny: yes, the movie certainly doesn't make you very sympathetic to her, she was a major substance abuser, (and if I recall correctly she was not exactly the best wife either, right?) However, that doesn't affect the underlying issue for me a single iota, that she has no more right to be murdered than anyone else. So I definitely didn't have an "either way, she got what she deserved" attitude toward Sunny. (Personally, I have no problem with drug addicts, I'm a libertarian and believe if anyone wants to screw themselves up, that's no one's business but their own. Although once someone has children, they certainly have a moral obligation to be stable functioning human beings and proper parents.

Here's the most important question about the most controversial aspect of the movie: DID YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THE MOVIE USING SUNNY AS THE NARRATOR?

p.s. fun fact: one of Dershowitz's students working on the case was.... Jim Cramer of CNBC's Mad Money

« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 05:45:07 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #11596 on: February 24, 2013, 05:46:46 PM »

It's not an issue of Sunny "deserving" anything. She may have overdosed on something and died, or deliberately killed herself. Tragic, but it happened. No reason Claus should go to jail, if that's the case. (Big if, I realize.)

I have no strong opinion on the narration. I guess the filmmakers wanted it to remind viewers that the case wasn't exclusively about Claus, and to give Sunny a "voice" in the story. Possibly she didn't know what happened anymore than we do.

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« Reply #11597 on: February 24, 2013, 05:47:03 PM »

btw, if you are the type of person who dislikes rich people, or if you believe that von Bulow only won cuz he was very rich , remember that, as Dershowitz emphasized in the interview, the prosecution was taken over by private lawyers for the other side (usually, a prosecution is not handled by private lawyers, but by the government prosecutor); Sunny had far more money than did Claud, so the prosecution had access to whatever the defense had access to, if not more. This was not a case of some millionaire defendant against a poor overworked underpaid understaffed prosecutor. (btw, even in cases where it is a gov't prosecutor, I have no problem with a rich defendant hiring top lawyers; the gov't, if it wants to, can throw any amount of money at a particular prosecution, it's not their own money but the taxpayers', and prosecutors have insane amounts of power that can be abused at great detriment to defendants'. For further illustration of that, check out another really good legal movie Absence of Malice -- this one is fictional but still depicts the potentially insane abuses that an unethical prosecutor can commit. Defendants are often at the mercy of the prosecutor's personal ethics, morals, and honesty -- the very same prosecutor who may be eying advancement in his office or a political career -- advancement achieved through "victories," ie. locking people away. It is a  very scary  prospect. Ensuring ethical prosecutors is a vital duty for a free society. Look at the case of Senator Ted Stevens for a recent real life example. But I digress...........  Wink

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« Reply #11598 on: February 24, 2013, 05:51:00 PM »

I have no problem with rich people so long as they don't abuse the system. That's my position.

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« Reply #11599 on: February 24, 2013, 05:51:50 PM »



I have no strong opinion on the narration. I guess the filmmakers wanted it to remind viewers that the case wasn't exclusively about Claus, and to give Sunny a "voice" in the story. Possibly she didn't know what happened anymore than we do.

I don't know if the issue over narration is unrelated to whether Sunny "knew" what happened

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« Reply #11600 on: February 24, 2013, 05:53:36 PM »

I have no problem with rich people so long as they don't abuse the system. That's my position.

but how do you define "abuse the system"? is it "abusing the system" to hire the best attorneys to find any possible way to put reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury? After all, isn't that what poor defendants would try to do as well, to the best of their means?

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« Reply #11601 on: February 24, 2013, 06:00:25 PM »

This brings up a question for you if you are interested in this stuff:

Supposing we knew for certain that Claus had indeed attempted to kill Sunny that night in 1980. Now, it's December 2008, and Sunny dies -- and doctors say there's no doubt whatsoever that she died due to Claus's injecting her with insulin 28 years earlier. Could Claus be brought to trial in 2008 for murder, for an action he committed in 1980?Huh



at common law, there was a "year and a day" rule if the death happened within a year and a day of the crime, it was presumed to be a result of the crime, and the defendant could be charged with murder.

But now, states are moving away from the year and a day rule, largely because advances in medical sceince now allow doctors to determine whether or not the cause of death is the crime in question. The "year and a day" common law rule was enacted who knows how many years ago in England, before there was any medical expertise to determine cause of death. Now that we have that sort of medical expertise, jurisdictions are moving away from the "year and a day" rule

In a very brief nutshell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_and_a_day_rule


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« Reply #11602 on: February 24, 2013, 06:33:14 PM »

but how do you define "abuse the system"? is it "abusing the system" to hire the best attorneys to find any possible way to put reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury? After all, isn't that what poor defendants would try to do as well, to the best of their means?

Using the system to commit or cover-up crimes, etc.

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« Reply #11603 on: February 25, 2013, 05:53:30 PM »

Death Rides A Horse (1967) - 4/5 stars. LVC once again proving he is a badass!

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« Reply #11604 on: February 25, 2013, 07:02:07 PM »

Drink, you may also enjoy this video. Jeremy Irons discusses the Bulow case with Eliot Spitzer, another of Dershowitz's assistants on the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGePmogxMyo

I checked the book out from the library today. Will comment once I've finished. Afro

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« Reply #11605 on: February 25, 2013, 08:26:30 PM »

Drink, you may also enjoy this video. Jeremy Irons discusses the Bulow case with Eliot Spitzer, another of Dershowitz's assistants on the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGePmogxMyo

I checked the book out from the library today. Will comment once I've finished. Afro

haha Nice

But seeing Joy Behar ruined everything

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« Reply #11606 on: February 26, 2013, 05:05:37 PM »

The Big Gundown (1966) - 4/5 stars.

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« Reply #11607 on: February 26, 2013, 05:53:12 PM »

haha Nice

But seeing Joy Behar ruined everything

Reading the book I also see Susan Estrich was an assistant on the prosecution side and John Kerry was one of the Appellate Judges. I guess everyone in New England wanted a crack at this case.

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« Reply #11608 on: February 27, 2013, 06:10:27 AM »

Boomerang! (1947) 7/10. After a popular Episcopal priest is murdered, Lee J. Cobb and Karl Malden--under community pressure--attempt to railroad witless Arthur Kennedy into the gas chamber. State's Attorney Dana Andrews is all set to prosecute, but something doesn't quite sit right. His dilemna then: go along with what's been set in motion (and please his Party masters), or hold out for justice? This being a film from '47 (and an Elia Kazan at that), there is, of course, no dilemna at all. This film is one of the few to expose the unreliability of eye witnesses (7 erroneously finger Kennedy). Set in a nameless Connecticut town, and based on a true event, the street scenes (according to IMDb) were shot in Stamford; interestingly, the interior courtroom scenes were filmed right here in White Plains. (This was a Louis de Rochemont "sets?-we-don't-need-no-stinking-sets!" production).

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« Reply #11609 on: February 27, 2013, 06:11:45 AM »

The Good, The Bad, And The Weird (2008) - 3/5. It has nothing on TGTBTU!

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