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Author Topic: JFK (1991)  (Read 4848 times)
T.H.
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« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2013, 09:44:54 PM »

Your behavior in this thread is embarrassing. Why are you so emotionally affected by one person's opinion (which was never even explicitly stated)? You have spent so much time on the attack - not to ignore the specious reasoning on your behalf - that I don't even know what your official stance is; which I assume is that Oswald was the lone gunman?

It is my official opinion that there was more than one shooter, thus...making it a conspiracy.

How can you not at least respect a differing opinion and admit that there are legitimate causes for concern, whether it be the Zapruder film, eye witness testimony, Oswald's military record (which correct me if I'm wrong, indicate he's an average shot, for the lack of the official phrasing), the issues with the rifle itself, et al.

It's ridiculous that you explicitly questioned my intelligence multiple times while having the audacity to accuse me of looking down on you.


« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 09:46:22 PM by T.H. » Logged


Claudia, we need you to appear in LOST COMMAND. It's gonna revolutionize the war genre. What did you think of the script?
drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2013, 10:36:47 PM »

@T.H.:

I don't think Groggy ever said that there definitely was not a second shooter. I don't know Groggy's opinion on the events of November 22, 1963, butI think that virtually everyone who has seen the Zapruder film and knows the most basic, simple facts about what happened on that day agree that there was more than one shooter. And, since I think most of us believe Oswald was not one man acting alone, that means there was a conspiracy. So on a literal level, we believe in a "conspiracy theory," (although now, the term 'conspiracy theory' basically a synonym for 'quack who believes the earth is flat.')

Now, while I chose not to respond to it initially, I also believed that your comment (paraphrasing) that this film is closer to the truth than the BS you learned in history class is just plain silly. I'm not denying that the stuff you learned in history class is bullshit (assuming you learned the lone-gunman-acting-alone-magic-bulllet theory). But does that mean the nonsense in this movie is closer to the truth? Really? I don't see how Stone can act all upset at the coverups and lies we have been told about the assassination, and then attempt to replace it with a different version of lies. (I will reiterate I have said clearly all along, I don't know a damn thing about what happened on that day; all I know is that every historian/scholar/half-interested person on both the Right and Left have said that there isn't an ounce of truth in the movie, and I have never heard anyone defend it factually. So, if the movie is a pack of lies, then Stone is no better than the assholes on the Warren Commission. And this movie gets no closer to the truth than the BS your teacher taught you).


Finally, I just wanna say that  -- while I think Groggy is entirely capable of defending himself, and I know that he can often be a rude ad-hominem attacking pain the ass -- IMO you are very wrong for criticizing him for a post which he subsequently deleted. I sure as hell have made posts in the past (including long crazy ones like the one you say Groggy made; heck, especially those!) which I have later regretted and deleted, cuz once I have time to think about it with a cooler and clearer mind, I say, 'no need for that crap," and I delete it and hope nobody has seen it). The fact is, if he deleted it pretty quickly  -- and on his own, not because someone called him out on it -- that means that he regretted it, for whatever reason. (Maybe he felt it was too harsh, maybe he felt it had bad grammar, whatever the reason), you can't bash someone for something that they quickly deleted.

When someone makes a post and quickly deletes it on his own, you should allow that to be forgotten about, rather than trying to bring up and bash someone for something that they immediately regretted and removed.

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« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2013, 11:39:44 PM »

Here's the original comment:

I find there to be more logic in this movie than any of the BS I was taught in history class.

Here's my explanation:

Two, the post simply implied that I think there's a greater chance that Stone's account - at least on a generic, vague level - that the US Govt, mainly CIA had a hand in the assassination is more logical than the idea of Oswald acting as a lone shooter.

As for placing the blame on me for this, agree to disagree. I feel like groggy crossed a line with the post and I wanted to confront him about it. Admittedly, it should have been done via PM, but that thought hadn't honestly occurred to me until a minute ago or so.

I have relatively thick skin, I'm over it. I don't have any issues with groggy, regardless of what he thinks of me. I just don't appreciate how he acted in the thread. I'm sure there are dozens of instances he can make the same claim about me, though I'd argue this thread wasn't one of them.

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« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2013, 02:30:20 AM »

I don't know what Groggy said, I just figure that if he deleted it on his own quickly, perhaps you should let it be forgotten. (Maybe I just sympathize cuz I know I sure as hell have written some rambling nonsense which I quickly regretted and deleted, and I would have hated if someone had seen it and brought it up later  Wink)

Anyway...

on the general, vague level that the Kennedy assassination was a larger plot involving more than one shooter, and not a lone gunman acting alone with a magic bullet, you won't get much of an argument. But that's not any sort of revelation on the part of this movie. Every idiot who has seen the Zapruder film figured that out. This movie goes way beyond the basic idea that the Kennedy assassination was not carried out by a lone gunman acting alone with a magic bullet.

btw, (I may have mentioned this when discussing this movie in the RTLMYS thread), but my father actually knows a tape expert who was consulted after the assassination (an audio recording exists of the assassination cuz a cop in the motorcade accidentally had his radio stuck into the "on" position; and all transmissions over police radio were recorded. After hearing the tape (he was asked, I guess sort of to 'test' him, how far the gunshots were fired from the tape, and he nailed it precisely); and he said there is no doubt that the shots came from more than one place.

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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2013, 05:09:17 AM »

Quote
How can you not at least respect a differing opinion


Not all "differing opinions" are equally valid. I do not feel compelled to be civil towards lunatics.

Quote
whether it be the Zapruder film,

Do explain what your particular issues are. Back and to the left is not an argument, beyond having a limited understanding of Newtonian physics.

Quote
eye witness testimony,


Find me someone who didn't take years to come forward and changed their story repeatedly over the years, and maybe I'll be interested.

Quote
Oswald's military record (which correct me if I'm wrong, indicate he's an average shot, for the lack of the official phrasing),


He was an average shot by USMC standards. I'm pretty sure Marines have higher standards than civilians.

Quote
the issues with the rifle itself

Which are what? The Carcano was a mediocre rifle but Oswald was only shooting from a few hundred feet away. He only hit on two of three shots, only one of which hit the presumed intended target (eg. Kennedy's head). Hardly a remarkable feet of marksmanship, not like he drilled him with one shot from 1,500 yards.

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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2013, 05:58:35 AM »

When someone makes a post and quickly deletes it on his own, you should allow that to be forgotten about, rather than trying to bring up and bash someone for something that they immediately regretted and removed.

Obviously the main fault lies with me. This is a hair-trigger topic for me and I shouldn't have posted it in the first place. That said, I deleted it about 5-10 minutes after posting, which makes me curious how T.H. saw it.

But maybe now you can see why I try and avoid non-film topics, drink.

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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2013, 12:51:27 PM »

So, Groggy, are you saying that you accept the findings of the Warren Commission?

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« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2013, 01:03:20 PM »

No, I believe Aquaman did it.

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T.H.
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« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2013, 09:18:57 PM »

I feel like this is as good a time as any to just say agree to disagree.

I'll also try my best to avoid anything remotely controversial that isn't film related.

I like the community and will do enough damage here with just my opinions on film alone.

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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2013, 01:04:50 AM »

T.H.: IMO, this debate is totally film-related, and you need not regret being involved in it.

yeah, in general, there are certain people that have a hard time handling certain debates/discussions maturely, but that doesn't mean that mature conversation should be stifled. (I am not bashing anyone in particular, just saying in general), it's a shame if good mature conversation is stifled out of an overabundance of caution just cuz some people won't be able to handle it properly.

As I've said in the past, IMO, any topic that is mentioned in a movie is an appropriate topic to discuss when we're discussing that movie. It's like e.g. with politics, it's generally pointless to just discuss that randomly, but if a movie brings up a particular political issue, then IMO it's fair game. After all, that's what we are here for: to discuss movies, and to discuss issues that are discussed in movies.

IMO there is absolutely nothing wrong with, in a thread for JFK, discussing your opinion on Kennedy's assassination. If some people can't handle that, then you can laugh at it, pity them, ignore them, or all 3.

I wanna make it clear that I didn't see the vanishing post you were talking about (just like the "magic bullet"  Wink ) and I am in no way criticizing anyone; all I am saying is that even if that post really was made, and even if it had been kept up, you shouldn't feel a need to refrain from conversation even if certain people can't handle it. They're often the same people who can't handle anything.

But wtf do I know; I'm the guy you said you pay no attention to anyway (probably the one smart comment you ever made).
--------------
My regret here is that this shit happened at all. I fucking hate when we veer off from talking about movies and movie-related topics, and getting into hissy fits. Really, Reminds me of the time I used to spend on the Metallica boards. All day long, the heavy metal jackasses were like,

"Fuck You!"

"No, Fuck YOU!!"


"No, Fuck you AND your mother!!!"


"Well fuck you and your mother and your sister!!"


"Dude, Metallica is like the craziest mutherfuckin shit ever. Its like lsisnen to it iz like Im sum dud eon crack, Im like a drug atti, this shit iz like dope for me dude"

"Dude, you dont now wtf u r talkin abot. Metallica hasn't made any good muzic since Ronal Raegin was president. Its like you don know what youre sayin. Your better off goin back an suckin a cock"...............................................


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« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2013, 01:13:51 AM »

okay, let's forget the squabbling.



I'm asking you a serious question, Groggy: Do you accept the Warren Commission's conclusions about the Kennedy assassination?

I haven't read even 1% as much about the Kennedy assassination (or any historical matter, other than baseball) that you probably have. (And I don't regard the movie JFK as being any more truthful about the Kennedy Association than My Darling Clementine is about the gunfight at the OK Corral. I mean, let's totally forget that the movie JFKwas ever made).

I am just asking you a question:  Do you agree with the Warren Commission or not? If not, what do you disagree with? Do you believe Oswald was a lone gunman basically acting alone, and that the fatal bullet [the one that hit Kennedy in the head, as we see on the Zapruder film] came from the book depository? etc.... I'm not trying to challenge you or get into an argument. You know much more than I do on this, and I simply want to know your opinion about it. Because I have never heard of anyone who has seen the Zapruder film say that he/she believes the fatal bullet came from the book depository.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 01:18:10 AM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2013, 12:28:11 PM »

T.H., you have nothing to regret or apologize for. I, however, do. I was a jackass and should have either curbed my temper or ignored this thread entirely. I'm sorry.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 01:45:22 PM by Groggy » Logged


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« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2013, 01:03:48 PM »

So, Groggers, do you think all the shots were fired by Oswald?

seriously, I am not trying to start any dumbass fight. I really wanna know what you think. Cuz after seeing the Zapruder film, I haven't heard anyone defend the single-shooter theory and I really wanna know what you think

« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 01:11:19 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2013, 01:18:16 PM »

Yes.

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« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2013, 01:29:58 PM »

The whole outrage over the "back, and to the left" started way before JFK was filmed. My understanding is that as soon as the Zapruder film was shown to the public, first on Good Night America http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj4qtpFXqsA there was a public outcry over the Warren Commission's findings.

Have any noted physicists argued that the fatal shot to the head could have been fired from the back?

-----------------------------

of course, all the answers can be found here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsxzmkm2vRc

and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsxzmkm2vRc

« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 06:59:40 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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