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Author Topic: Greatest Western.  (Read 23765 times)
titoli
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« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2009, 05:16:16 PM »

I have. The movie is indisputably American; it can also be considered Italian. The two conditions are not mutually exclusvie.

Yeah, undisputably.

Anyway, in the infamous Roger Ebert review os the movie:

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19690606/REVIEWS/906060301/1023

it is reported what I presume is the original presentation of the movie in the USA which reads:

Paramount presents a Rafran-San Marco production

which it's just what I am claiming: an italian production. I never saw any USA release of the movie so I can't say if in newer prints the above was changed and can't find the opening scene at youtube.

Happy NY everybody!

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« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2009, 06:25:23 PM »


But the point it is not this. I would easily concede that this is the most american of L.'s westerns. The problem is another and we went into it when we talked about LoA. How do we decide about the nationality of a movie? By a toss-up? No, it isn't like this at all. As in Italy there was (and still is) a very clear law about it, strictly connected to the money the State grants to indigenous productions, the matter it cannot be a nmatter of dispute. Every movie must state clearly his nationality or multiple nationality (if a co-production. which it is not the case of C'era una volta il West) if it wants to have that statal subsides  granted, even abroad. The whole affair is regulated in front of a notary with a detailed procedure with a file that is then deposited at the ministry of Spectacle (which now has been incorporated in the misnistry of Tourism or can't remember what) and which makes law. Have you ever seen such a document? I presume you didn't: well it leaves no room for doubt. But, most of all, I ask you, should a judiciary quarrel between the italian producer and the american associate one have arisen, would that have been brought to court in Italy or USA?  

No one knows the answer because, like many such issues, it can only be addressed through actual trial and adjudication. My guess is that if the Italian producer were the injured party he would seek redress from an Italian court; if the Americans were to bring an action, they would do so in a U.S. court. But it would depend on the details of the dispute and what the injured party wished to achieve. An American celebrity slandered in a British tabloid would bring his complaint before a UK judge because of jurisdiction, but also because UK libel laws favor such a plaintiff. With the same slander in a U.S. publication, he would probably just let the matter go. Law is usually exercised from a position of advantage.

Titoli, I guess you've never heard of the concept of dual citizenship. One country can confer citizenship on an individual, but the fact of that conferral cannot constrain another country from conferring citizenship on him as well. Thus an individual can be the citizen of two (or even more) countries simultaneously. True, many countries use the fact of one's citizenship in another country as cause to withdraw citizenship, but in that case they are only unmaking what they themselves have made. Country A cannot tell Country B to unmake the citizenship that Country B has granted Mr. X. Likewise, the fact that the Italian government considers West an Italian film in no way precludes the Americans from conferring "citizenship" on it as well. The basis for that citizenship is very different--we don't have government subsides for our films, so we don't have to have the kind of documentation you're talking about--but the citizenship is no less legitimate because of it.

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« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2009, 06:28:27 PM »

Paramount presents a Rafran-San Marco production
Paramount, Rafran, and San Marco are the production partners. How clearer can it be?

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« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2009, 06:45:49 PM »

Paramount, Rafran, and San Marco are the production partners. How clearer can it be?

Like this, for example:" A Paramount, Rafran and San Marco production".


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titoli
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« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2009, 06:50:58 PM »

No one knows the answer because, like many such issues, it can only be addressed through actual trial and adjudication. My guess is that if the Italian producer were the injured party he would seek redress from an Italian court; if the Americans were to bring an action, they would do so in a U.S. court. But it would depend on the details of the dispute and what the injured party wished to achieve. An American celebrity slandered in a British tabloid would bring his complaint before a UK judge because of jurisdiction, but also because UK libel laws favor such a plaintiff. With the same slander in a U.S. publication, he would probably just let the matter go. Law is usually exercised from a position of advantage.

Titoli, I guess you've never heard of the concept of dual citizenship. One country can confer citizenship on an individual, but the fact of that conferral cannot constrain another country from conferring citizenship on him as well. Thus an individual can be the citizen of two (or even more) countries simultaneously. True, many countries use the fact of one's citizenship in another country as cause to withdraw citizenship, but in that case they are only unmaking what they themselves have made. Country A cannot tell Country B to unmake the citizenship that Country B has granted Mr. X. Likewise, the fact that the Italian government considers West an Italian film in no way precludes the Americans from conferring "citizenship" on it as well. The basis for that citizenship is very different--we don't have government subsides for our films, so we don't have to have the kind of documentation you're talking about--but the citizenship is no less legitimate because of it.

You know you're talking about what you don't know and improvise. At least be honest and admit you have no inkling about the matter in dispute. The examples you bring are worthless. We are talking about something which, had been proven false, would have brought the producers in front of a judge. Paramount  couldn't have subscribed something in Rome and then done something different in USA, as proven, in spite of what you invent, by the credits of the american release. Really, leave this matter alone and come up, next time, with your popcorn releases arguments. They're funnier.

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« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2009, 07:56:28 PM »

The problem here Titoli is that you are being a stubborn thickwit. Whether or not it makes sense or you think it's logical, OUATITW is an American film by the criteria the Library of Congress has denoted. You can dispute the fairness or wisdom of such classification but you cannot really dispute that it fits said classification.

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titoli
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« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2009, 08:13:41 PM »

From the official press release:http://www.loc.gov/film/NFR2009.pdf

In other words, only American films are considered for inclusion.

yeah, but I still wonder how they establish what is american and what is not.

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titoli
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« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2009, 08:31:44 PM »

The problem here Titoli is that you are being a stubborn thickwit. Whether or not it makes sense or you think it's logical,

This is not a problem of logic, as dj argues. It's a problem of law.


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OUATITW is an American film by the criteria the Library of Congress has denoted. You can dispute the fairness or wisdom of such classification but you cannot really dispute that it fits said classification.

Good, tell me what these criteria are then.
And you do not really need to insult people to make your point, do you?

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« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2010, 07:29:30 AM »

"Once Upon a Time in Washington":

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Claudia Cardinale is floored by the news that her 'West'-ern movie made the national registry. I asked Stephen C. Leggett of the National Film Preservation Board of the Library of Congress to explain; he told me that while most Leone films are "100 percent Italian," "Once Upon a Time in the West" qualifies as a "U.S./Italian film" because it was funded by Paramount, largely shot in Arizona's Monument Valley (with additional work in Spain and at Rome's Cinecitta studio) and filled with American talent (most notably, Henry Fonda). "So we wanted to recognize Leone and Spaghetti Westerns, and felt that 'Once Upon a Time in the West'  was American enough." Whatever its pedigree, it's certainly one of the great films of any time or place.

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« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2010, 07:39:49 AM »

"American enough" That's good enough for me  Cool

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« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2010, 07:41:02 AM »

QED.

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« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2010, 07:42:22 AM »

Yup, whatever one makes of it, at least that explains the choice.

The only thing concerning me now is the comment that "most Leone films are '100 percent Italian'". This really betrays a severe lack of knowledge about all of Leone's films and the environment in which they were created.

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« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2010, 08:48:06 AM »

100% Euorpean would be a better way of putting it.

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« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2010, 03:47:44 PM »

I asked Stephen C. Leggett of the National Film Preservation Board of the Library of Congress to explain; he told me that while most Leone films are "100 percent Italian," "Once Upon a Time in the West" qualifies as a "U.S./Italian film" because it was funded by Paramount, largely shot in Arizona's Monument Valley (with additional work in Spain and at Rome's Cinecitta studio) and filled with American talent (most notably, Henry Fonda). "So we wanted to recognize Leone and Spaghetti Westerns, and felt that 'Once Upon a Time in the West'  was American enough."

What is this fella saying?
1) That it was "funded" (he doesn't say, correctly, it was "produced") by american money , like zillion other movies around the world.
2) "Largely shot in the Monument Valley with "additional" work in Europe". Did he watch the movie at all?
3) Filled with american talent. Just a little more than GBU.
4) "So we wanted to recognize Leone and Spaghetti": this goes without saying. He's talking about italian specialties.
5) And "felt" (he doesn't make any passport consideration: just points out that the decision was based on purely subjective considerations) was "american enough": i.e. the more american of Leone's westerns and of the spaghetti genre. Agreed.

Which is what I'm saying from the start: they just decided a spaghetti (i.e.: italian) movie was part of the american culture (which it certainly is) and included it, without other considerations. Bravi.


Another italian movie which I find eligible for the Library of Congress preservation society is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJWnP2SAVCQ

Best parody of american mass culture.

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« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2010, 03:52:16 PM »

Good for you.

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