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Author Topic: Dances with Wolves (1990)  (Read 15455 times)
Groggy
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« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2012, 06:49:09 PM »

It's a shame that the plight of the Native American bores you seeing that they were there long before the white colonialists.

Indeed. And they were quite preoccupied raping, killing and destroying each other millennia before the whites got there. Afro

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« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2012, 06:57:01 PM »

Indeed. And they were quite preoccupied raping, killing and destroying each other millennia before the whites got there. Afro

Oh yes that old chestnut.Didn't Caesar say similar things about the illiterate Celts?Whatever delusional bullshit you wish to believe to quell your white guilt. Cool

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Groggy
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2012, 07:28:44 PM »

No defense huh?

And "delusional bullshit" - you really want to go there? Frankly I'd rather rassle.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 07:30:42 PM by Groggy » Logged


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« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2012, 03:24:18 AM »

The last i want to say on the matter that as a Brit i am quite appalled at my country's dark past of colonialism,"Britannia rules the waves" and all that crap at the expense of the exploitation and suffering of other human beings.

If you have the chroniclers on your side it's very convenient way to paint a false reality in order to justify such attrocities.

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« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2012, 04:20:10 AM »

Who's justifying anything? It's not "false reality" to say Native Americans killed each other and one need not endorse the Trail of Tears to note as much. Claiming as much bespeaks of historical ignorance or self-righteous posturing.

As for "white guilt," I have none for nothing I was complicit in. Sounds like you're projecting old chum.

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« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2012, 04:31:53 AM »

It's a shame that the plight of the Native American bores you seeing that they were there long before the white colonialists .As always it was the priveledge  ol the vicors of war to by means of propaganda to dehumanise a race rightfully defending their lands  to ruthless invaders.I'm by no means an expert on the subject but my understanding is that the indigenous Americans were destroyed as a direct result of written and broken treaties, warfare, and of forced assimilation,a tactic readily employed by other nations throughout history and well into the following century.

I am not necessarily disagreeing (or agreeing) with your historical assertions about the Indians. All I am saying is that it is not a story that interests me in a movie. The words "bores me," when it comes to movies, means that I am not very interested in seeing the subject matter portrayed in a movie.

There are many other very important topics in the world, that don't interest me as movie subjects: One example is RELIGION. Another example is CHEMISTRY. And BIOLOGY. And the TRAINING OF ARMED FORCES TO GO TO WAR. The list could go on and on. The point is that there are certain issues in the world that interest me as a movie topic, and other issues in the world that do not interest me as a movie topic. By no means does that indicate that one issue is more important than another issue

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and as for the spat between Groggy and Banjo: this uneducated 3rd generation Yank will say that it is probably safe to say that atrocities were committed by both sides: "The Indians" (ie. various individuals in various Indian tribes) had barbaric rituals of their own; attacked and slaughtered, and scalped each other, and were barbarians; and committed atrocities as well as suffered atrocities at the hands of  "The Whites" (ie. various individuals from European ancestry); who committed atrocities against Indians, both in terms of stealing land, killing, and violating treaties, and suffered atrocities at the hands of the Indians as well).

My very uneducated point here is the issue is much more complicated than the "White=Good, Indian=Evil" of the 1940's Western; but it's also much more complicated than the "White=Evil, Indian=Good" in any and all situations of the jackasses like Roger Ebert. There were many different actions, treaties, wars, dealings, discussions, attacks, killings, kidnappings, etc. across the numerous individual instances that have come to collectively be known as "The Indian Wars." And I am sure that each side had people who did things wrong and people who did things right.

But the way things went down, it's sort of the opposite of "victors write the history books." Rather, since the victors (ie. the whites) had so much more sophisticated weaponry and were able to (justified or unjustified) deliver such a resounding defeat, perhaps it appears as if the Whites are the bad guys cuz they were so successful in getting rid of Indians -- while the very same Indians would have done the same thing if they'd had the numbers and weapons to do so.....

My point is, it's a very, very complicated issue, and unless and until I get a PhD in History of the Indian Wars, I really can't say anything for sure; but I do feel comfortable saying that if you put all Indians to one side and all Whites to the other, there will be blood on both sides, atrocities on both sides, and no one side will be perfectly correct in all disputes related to land or anything else....
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With that said, if I do come across a time that Americans did commit an atrocity, or whites did commit an atrocity in the Indian Wars, I have no dumbass "white guilt" about that. I was not there (nor were my parents or grandparents or great grandparents -- who either weren't alive  or were living elsewhere). Nor do I have any "white guilt" over what happened to the blacks in America: I never held any slaves or mistreated slaves, nor did anyone in my family, none of whom lived in America during slavery; nor did they live in the South during Jim Crow; nor did they ever discriminate against anyone.
White Guilt essentially means that because once upon a time, people who have nothing in common with me except my skin color, harmed people of another skin color; somehow now I, who had zero to do with this, should feel guilt and feel like I owe something to those who have the same skin color as the people who were discriminated against 100 years ago.
Yeah, this sort of lunacy is of the sort promulgated (in one way or another) by idiots like Ebert.

And if I lived in Britain, I'd never say I "feel embarrassed" for Being British or feel like I have to apologize for all their colonization: you had nothing to do with it. The country isn't you. The King, the Parliament, the Army, they are not you. You happen to live in the country in which they rule, but you should feel no more responsible to apologize for their actions than you'd feel responsible if a stray dog took a shit on your neighbor's yard Smiley

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 09:41:47 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2012, 07:46:08 AM »

The cave scene has one point though.
It makes Tuco more negative. Only a real asshole sends his friends into their certain death.
Without the cave scene I had assumed that Tuco used just some anonymous hired guns as bait. 



I'm going to disagree with the "certain death" idea.  Had the military column not stopped - and Blondie not heard the guy's spurs - the plan would have very likely succeeded. 

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« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2012, 09:59:31 AM »

Drink's on the right track here I think, but even so, why are we having this discussion?

Even going back to the post that set Banjo off, it seems drink was mostly complaining about the one-dimensional characterization of whites. This is an entirely different matter than the historical plight of the Native Americans. A movie's dramatic structure and effectiveness can exist separate from historical reality.

For that matter, how is drink not finding an aspect of the film interesting a cause for pompous chest-thumping?

I do not especially care to pursue an argument re: imperialism, least of all with Banjo. All I know is that my family were Germans who immigrated to Pennsylvania circa 1750, never owned slaves (some fought for the Union in fact) and probably didn't see anything like a frontier after the first or second generation. I'll grant it's possible that an ancestor used an ethnic slur at some point in the past 300 years. Ergo, I feel no "white guilt" and see no reason why I should.  If Banjo wishes to flagellate himself over what his countrymen did 100+ years ago, all power to him. 

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 10:49:14 AM by Groggy » Logged


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« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2012, 12:29:28 PM »

Leone never had Indian conflicts in his films. (In fact, the three Indian targets at the gun shop in GBU are the only mention, I believe, aside from the name Cheyenne in OUATITW). Since I love Leone's Westerns more than anything and saw them first, maybe that affected me and it's why I don't care for that storyline. Or maybe it's cuz I sense that there are larger, deeper issues there that I am unwilling to think about when I want some mindless entertainment. All I know is that while the topic of the Indian Wars is an important one, it's not something that interests me to watch a movie about

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« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2012, 01:23:54 PM »

(In fact, the three Indian targets at the gun shop in GBU are the only mention, I believe, aside from the name Cheyenne in OUATITW).

Also Woody Strode's wife at the station.

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« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2012, 03:08:03 PM »

Maybe this discussion is fitting:

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=77.0

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« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2012, 03:27:55 PM »

Also Woody Strode's wife at the station.

And the "redskin warriors" Jill runs into in Flagstone.

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« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2012, 03:48:53 PM »

well maybe that'c cuz OUATITW is a reference to AW's (and has characters borrowed from AW's, etc.) Of the 3 Dollars films -- the "pure spaghetti westerns," I believe those Indian targets at the gun shop is the only mention of Indians (and El Indio, but he is a Mexican Indian, not an American Indian)

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« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2012, 06:07:45 PM »

Who's justifying anything? It's not "false reality" to say Native Americans killed each other and one need not endorse the Trail of Tears to note as much. Claiming as much bespeaks of historical ignorance or self-righteous posturing.

As for "white guilt," I have none for nothing I was complicit in. Sounds like you're projecting old chum.

For the reasons that i've stated above it displays historical ignorance to accept everything that's been written down in history books at face value.From what sources are you drawing from  that the Native Americans " were quite preoccupied raping, killing and destroying each other millennia before the whites got there" and what evidence is there of this other than heavily biased hearsay?And if this really was the case what makes them any different to the North and South slaughtering each other during the civil war?Of course the Europeans were using this age old excuse as a justification  for their actions especially as unlike the "barbaric savages" they as ever "had god on their side"


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« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2012, 06:19:00 PM »



and as for the spat between Groggy and Banjo,

I'm sorry that i misinterpreted you drinks.

I don't have a problem with Groggy either and of now and as in the past i enjoy the occasional run in with him as i'm sure he does.

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