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Author Topic: Dances with Wolves (1990)  (Read 14828 times)
Banjo
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« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2012, 06:35:11 PM »

I feel no "white guilt" and see no reason why I should.  If Banjo wishes to flagellate himself over what his countrymen did 100+ years ago, all power to him.  

I only mentioned "white guilt" once purely tongue in cheek but clearly from your response i may have touched a nerve with you Groggy!  Grin

No seriously like yourself and drinks i'd  never beat myself about things that happened well before my lifetime and out of my control.I said i was appalled at the whole idea of the British Empire and nothing more . But  the main point  i'm  trying to make here  is that everyone should be aware enough not to believe everything we are spoonfed about the past and present.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 07:15:53 PM by Banjo » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2012, 07:27:37 PM »

For the reasons that i've stated above it displays historical ignorance to accept everything that's been written down in history books at face value.

This is a pointless statement unless you can a) enumerate what you consider a valid source or b) explain why it's wrong. With my History background I like to think I can tell the difference between good and bad history.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 07:31:35 PM by Groggy » Logged


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« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2012, 07:30:29 PM »

I don't have a problem with Groggy either and of now and as in the past i enjoy the occasional run in with him as i'm sure he does.

No doubt Banjo, you know more about Spaghettis (and possibly Westerns in general) than I could hope to and you're a nice guy to chat with. Afro

On the other hand, this exchange helps show why it's a good idea to steer clear of political discussions though. We've had a few in the past and they've never ended well.

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« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2012, 09:58:50 PM »

Banjo: Somehow I misinterpreted your earlier statement that you are "appalled" by Britain's colonialism to mean that you felt guilty about it. Sorry for the misinterpretation. Yeah, you definitely should be appalled at those actions of Britain; but no more or less than you should be appalled at the actions of numerous other countries and/or individuals who committed atrocities. My point is that just because you happen to live in the same country and have the same skin color as a group of people who committed atrocities in the past, doesn't mean that you are in any way responsible. It's the same with the White Guilt here in America that so many liberals have. I feel zero personal guilt for any of the atrocities committed against blacks, because I (nor any of my ancestors, btw) had nothing to do with it whatsoever. Sure, I am appalled by the actions that some Americans did; but I do not have any guilt about it. Just as I am eg. appalled by the atrocities that some African tribes have committed (and are committing to this day, but feel no guilt about it).

And I don't know on what basis you can accuse me and/or Groggy of just accepting what "history" teaches us, and on what basis you presume to know what we believe/rely on. To be clear, the fact that many Indians were barbarians is NO justification for any atrocities committed by Whites against them; but that barbarism cannot be denied. (And no, I am not basing that on what I see in Westerns, and I am sure Groggy isn't either). And I in no way condoned the actions of the North-South of the Civil War. A while ago, in a post about the Betterville scene in GBU, I made a long post about how disturbed I am every time I think of Andersonville, and compared those in charge of these camps to Nazis. (I ultimately deleted that post, because it was actually irrelevant to the topic of that thread). But I respectfully think there is much that you wrongfully presume about my and Groggy's belief in American history. For the record, I believe that whites and Americans -- both individuals and government -- are as capable of evil as anyone else in the world.

And I agree with Groggy that political discussions are generally not beneficial; but often they will come up when discussing a movie which raises political issues (such as Dances With Wolves)




« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 10:08:40 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2012, 10:21:01 PM »

Banjo: Somehow I misinterpreted your earlier statement that you are "appalled" by Britain's colonialism to mean that you felt guilty about it. Sorry for the misinterpretation. Yeah, you definitely should be appalled at those actions of Britain; but no more or less than you should be appalled at the actions of numerous other countries and/or individuals who committed atrocities. My point is that just because you happen to live in the same country and have the same skin color as a group of people who committed atrocities in the past, doesn't mean that you are in any way responsible. It's the same with the White Guilt here in America that so many liberals have. I feel zero personal guilt for any of the atrocities committed against blacks, because I (nor any of my ancestors, btw) had nothing to do with it whatsoever. Sure, I am appalled by the actions that some Americans did; but I do not have any guilt about it. Just as I am eg. appalled by the atrocities that some African tribes have committed (and are committing to this day, but feel no guilt about it).

And I don't know on what basis you can accuse me and/or Groggy of just accepting what "history" teaches us, and on what basis you presume to know what we believe/rely on. To be clear, the fact that many Indians were barbarians is NO justification for any atrocities committed by Whites against them; but that barbarism cannot be denied. (And no, I am not basing that on what I see in Westerns, and I am sure Groggy isn't either). And I in no way condoned the actions of the North-South of the Civil War. A while ago, in a post about the Betterville scene in GBU, I made a long post about how disturbed I am every time I think of Andersonville, and compared those in charge of these camps to Nazis. (I ultimately deleted that post, because it was actually irrelevant to the topic of that thread). But I respectfully think there is much that you wrongfully presume about my and Groggy's belief in American history. For the record, I believe that whites and Americans -- both individuals and government -- are as capable of evil as anyone else in the world.

And I agree with Groggy that political discussions are generally not beneficial; but often they will come up when discussing a movie which raises political issues (such as Dances With Wolves)

This is definitely getting old watch something new please!



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« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2012, 03:40:31 AM »

Groggy,I also have a good grounding in (apart from perhaps USA Cheesy)history and i wasn't  really thinking about any politics.The white guilt thing was a stupid dumbass statement about a subject i know little about and yes i'm wrong to jump to conclusions about what yourself and Drnks rely/believe  in.I also respect that both yourself and Drinks know an awful lot more about your own history than i do.

Anyway partly what i had in mind  is that with modern archaeology one can question what has been traditionally taught to us all in history books.For example  British archaeologists have still not uncovered any tangible support for the Anglo Saxon invasion and ethnic cleansing of the celts as stated in the annals of the time.They have not found any evidence of battlefields or mass burials.Also recent dna surveys would indicate that the English are as indigeneous as the Scots,Irish and Welsh.In conclusion the genetic pool has remained unaltered with the current thinking that the only "invasion" that took place was a cultural one.

Sorry CJ.I'll now shut up for good before i'm stripped of my moderatorship. Smiley

« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 04:55:57 AM by Banjo » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2012, 06:53:15 AM »

Quote
Anyway partly what i had in mind  is that with modern archaeology one can question what has been traditionally taught to us all in history books.For example  British archaeologists have still not uncovered any tangible support for the Anglo Saxon invasion and ethnic cleansing of the celts as stated in the annals of the time.They have not found any evidence of battlefields or mass burials.Also recent dna surveys would indicate that the English are as indigeneous as the Scots,Irish and Welsh.In conclusion the genetic pool has remained unaltered with the current thinking that the only "invasion" that took place was a cultural one.

Fair enough Banjo, and I'd certainly agree that one shouldn't uncritically accept "the standard account" account of anything. At the same time though, one needs a reason (evidence, research, what have you) to discount it rather than a vague cynicism. "Alternate" accounts generally have their own political or sociological axe to grind; I wouldn't commend anyone to, say, the Politically Incorrect Guides because their goal is obviously to promote a right-wing agenda.

The research on pre-Columbian Native Americans does not indicate a peaceful utopian society, is my point. The Sioux were a fairly war-like tribe by most accounts, though nothing on the level of, say, the Aztecs or Apaches. I was not (intentionally) advocating the superiority of American/European culture. It was a half-snarky comment anyway, and in retrospect probably an overreaction to your post.

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« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2012, 08:01:37 AM »

In fact, the three Indian targets at the gun shop in GBU

Hey, those were two-dimensional !!!!   Couldn't resist the feeble joke.

Those of us who saw the film in theaters first, then saw the ABC network broadcasts in the mid-1970s, remember that the network cut out part of that scene (too racial, but perfect and appropriate for the time period).  They showed Tuco walking to the back of the shop, then cut out the first shots so it was not easy to even tell that the targets were Indians as they were shown in severe profile.


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« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2012, 08:11:38 AM »

This is definitely getting old watch something new please!

You may think this line is getting old, but believe me son, I want me gold! Cheesy

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« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2012, 09:18:29 AM »

movies with political issues will necessary result in discussions on the issue the movie brings up, (and naturally, often lead to peripheral discussions as well). So no serious discussion of Dancing With Wolves can exclude a discussing of the Indian Wars, just like no serious discussion of The Green Berets can exclude discussing Vietnam, nor can a serious discussion of October Baby be possible if you exclude the subject of abortion. So unless you wanna say that "ALL MOVIES WITH ANY POLITICAL TOPIC WHATSOEVER ARE BANNED!" it is inevitable that these topics of conversation will come up from time to time.
Though politics are among my least favorite subjects, I don't mind it if it comes up as part of a discussion of a movie that brought up those very issues

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« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2012, 09:55:10 AM »

Quote
politics are among my least favorite subjects

Could have fooled me.

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« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2017, 09:59:50 PM »

An outstanding film and the D/C is one of my favourite Westerns of all time.

What a fascinating thread! I'm not interested in the historical debates within, but found many of the posts intriguing to say the least. I do think that the film's gargantuan success hurt some of you  Evil Evil Evil

Anyway, here's my gargantuan review, and it's not one for the haters to try and wade through.

It is the trail of a true human being. I think you are on this trail and it is good to see.

Dances With Wolves Is directed by Kevin Costner who also stars. It's adapted by Michael Blake from his own novel of the same name. Starring along side Costner are Graham Greene, Mary McDonnell & Rodney A. Grant. Dean Semler provides the cinematography & John Barry the musical score. Set during the American Civil War, the story tells how Lieutenant John Dunbar (Costner) goes to a military outpost on the American frontier, where confronted with alienation he befriends nature, the Lakota Indians and finds himself in the process.

"I had never known a people so eager to laugh, so devoted to family, so dedicated to each other. And the only word that came to mind was harmony"

The critics were rubbing their hands with glee, getting ready to tear Costner apart for what undoubtedly would be a failure. An epic Western movie made in 1990, had he not learnt from Heaven's Gate? It was long in production, and with only a $15/$22 million budget afforded it, word came that Costner had to put in $3 million of his own cash to aid production. It was beset with production delays as the problems mounted up with the weather, animal training and with action scenes taking up to three weeks to shoot, all contributing to the belief that it was doomed to failure. "Kevin's Gate" they cried, what's that? It's partially sub-titled too? Never work.

Dances With Wolves went on to make $424 million in Worldwide theatre tickets alone. Heaven knows what the total would be if we added the VHS & DVD returns as well! Come Academy Award time the film won 7 Oscars, including Best Picture (making it the first Western to win the prestigious award since Cimarron in 1931) & Best Director. It was also nominated in five other categories with Costner up for Best Actor, Graham Greene for Best Supporting Actor & Mary McDonnell for Best Supporting Actress. It was, all told, a personal, artistic and commercial triumph for Costner. One can see him post Oscar night sitting there on his porch sipping sour mash and flipping the finger at all those critics who willed him to fail.

Costner's movie is a simple tale, of that there is no arguing. But Dances With Wolves (the name given to Dunbar by the Sioux) is magnificently told, as enchanting a Western that has ever been made. It boasts everything needed to make a first class Oater. The story may be simple but it's rich on detail, the characters have real depth and it never sags, not even in its magnificent elongated directors cut that runs 236 minutes. The credit has to go to Costner, who in his debut as director lest we forget, has managed to blend everything together in the style of one of the old masters from the classic Western period. Every tonal avenue ventured down pays off handsome rewards, it all goes somewhere, awash with wistfulness, romanticism and elegiac poetry. The action sequences are expertly crafted, with a buffalo hunt particularly breath taking; no CGI here, the odd animatronic for a close encounter, but mainly the real deal, as are the wolves and the Lakota Sioux, too, who are played by Native Americans. Its humorous too, with its fun being intentional and aiding the flow of the friendships forming.

As most Western fans will tell you, a lyrical horse opera needs great location work and a score to match. Thankfully Dances With Wolves has both, as both Semler & Barry produce work that picked up the Golden Baldy on Oscar night. Lensed predominantly in South Dakota around the Black Hills & Badlands regions, Semler infuses the film with natural landscapes that send the frontier bursting thru the screen, his framing explains things better than words can in this environment. While Barry's score, lifting nicely from A View To A Kill at times, is suitably grand, deft in touch for the main theme and blood pumping for the buffalo hunt and the Pawnee attacks. Acting wise the award nominations received for Costner, Greene & McDonnell were richly deserved. The boys are quiet and undemonstrative, at one with the essence of the story and infusing it with a sincerity so lacking in many epics. Playing Stands With A Fist, a white woman raised by the Sioux after her family were slaughtered when she was a child, McDonnell has to reach different character levels as the story unfolds, and she delivers emotional depth on every level. No nomination for Grant, but his work is top dollar also, his latter scenes with Costner really nail the shift in tone.

There's some historical missteps that will no doubt annoy the purists, like I don't believe the Pawnee were the aggressors they are painted as here. While the central romance between Costner & McDonnell is delicate but not fully formed; tho it does improve in the directors cut. But it's hard to criticise little itches when such vision and ambition comes together as well as it does here. Structured with precision and showing respect for tradition, this is a movie about loving people for people lovers. And one can quite easily believe that some genre legends up in the sky were looking down and nodding approvingly. 10/10

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« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2017, 02:17:11 AM »

An outstanding film and the D/C is one of my favourite Westerns of all time.


I prefer the shorter version. The longer version adds a few nice details, but is problematic for the rhythm. It is a quite good western. 8/10

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« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2017, 03:28:23 AM »

I prefer the shorter version. The longer version adds a few nice details, but is problematic for the rhythm. It is a quite good western. 8/10

What has 2017 changed for/in you? Almost all of your one-line reviews are spot on.

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« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2017, 03:40:24 AM »

I saw the movie once (long version) 5 years ago, and gave it a 9/10. But since then, I never had the slightest desire to see it again. Is t just because of the length? Is it because emotionally heavy movies are not easy to watch frequently? Or is it because the movie has gone down in my estimation over the past few years even though I have not seen it again? I do not know the answer. Whatever it is, I don't feel  any interest whatsoever in seeing it again anytime soon.

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