Conversation(s) avec Sergio Leone - Noel Simsolo

[HG]

Simsolo had a fifteen year friendship with Leone and this book is a collection of questions and answers between the two of them, in French.  It was first published in 1987, two years prior to Leone's death.  As far as I am aware it's never officially been translated into English.  Whilst Leone's views seem to change over the years and his quotes are sometimes contradictory, it's good to read his actual words and what he was thinking rather than the opinions of a fan or film critic.

The chapter on Once Upon A Time in America begins:

Once Upon A Time In America - The Hoods - Harry Grey - Gérard Depardieu - Robert De Niro - An opium dream - Journey to hell - Once upon a time ... Cinema

Simsolo: How did you discover The Hoods?

Leone: Giuseppe Colizzi had me read it. Colizzi was the nephew of Luigi Zampa. He was a writer. He had followed the making of the Good, the Bad and the Ugly because he wanted to make westerns. Indeed, he launched the duo Terence Hill and Bud Spencer just before Enzo Barboni made My Name Is Trinity under the pseudonym of E.B.Clucher. One day, Colizzi told me he stole an entire chapter of an American novel for one of the sequences of the film: Ace High (Les Quatre de l'Ave Maria). The title of the book was: Mano Armata in Italian. The author was Harry Grey. The original title was The Hoods.

Colizzi had not asked permission to use this excerpt. It was the casino scene after the attack on the bank. Later, I removed the scene in my own film ... after seeing this part of the book, I was not enthusiastic. It was not great. However I found some elements that encouraged me to make a movie. Something else also intrigued me. On the cover of the book it said that it was the autobiography of a real gangster. And damn I wanted to meet this Harry Grey.

Leone's words differ slightly from Frayling who said Leone first encountered the Hoods when his wife's brother-in-law Fulvio Morsella read it to him in Italian. I have seen Ace High (Les Quatre de l'Ave Maria) which is a typical Terence Hill and Bud Spencer movie, lifted a bit by the casino scene and Eli Wallach. Colizzi simplifies the crooked roulette wheel idea by having a person in the basement who has access to the underside of the wheel.

[Novecento]

Simsolo had a fifteen year friendship with Leone and this book is a collection of questions and answers between the two of them, in French.  It was first published in 1987, two years prior to Leone's death.  As far as I am aware it's never officially been translated into English.  Whilst Leone's views seem to change over the years and his quotes are sometimes contradictory, it's good to read his actual words and what he was thinking rather than the opinions of a fan or film critic.

There's actually a topic on the book here.

Leone's words differ slightly from Frayling who said Leone first encountered the Hoods when his wife's brother-in-law Fulvio Morsella read it to him in Italian.

It's strange that Frayling does not mention this; he often cites Simsolo so should have been aware of it.

I have seen Ace High (Les Quatre de l'Ave Maria) which is a typical Terence Hill and Bud Spencer movie, lifted a bit by the casino scene and Eli Wallach. Colizzi simplifies the crooked roulette wheel idea by having a person in the basement who has access to the underside of the wheel.

It's cool to see that Colizzi got some inspiration from "The Hoods" too. I actually really like "Ace High"; it's my favorite of the Colizzi trilogy. It's actually fairly serious for a Hill-Spencer movie isn't it? The director was Colizzi, and not Barboni, after all.

[HG]

There's actually a topic on the book here

I noticed that but the thread doesn't go into much detail.  In any event  the only chapter I've so far fully translated is the one relating to Once Upon A Time In America so the post seemed more appropriate in this section.  There's plenty of material in this chapter which I found interesting and some of the items have not been fully discussed before.

Frayling's account is only slightly different to Leone's words.  In the OUATIA chapter in Frayling's book, Frayling says "Sergio Leone first encountered The Hoods when Fulvio Morsella read it to him in Italian." and in the GBU chapter "Colizzi also recommended the book to Fulvio Morsella....".  In fact Leone had direct conversations with Colizzi about the book and Frayling's emphasis on what happened just seems a bit incorrect.

In The Hoods Frank Costello summons Max and Noodles and tells them about a politician in a South Jersey seaside resort who is operating a large gambling casino. Costello "lets" the politician operate it but the politician is telling people that Costello actually owns it and the politician is using crooked equipment.  Costello's reputation is suffering and he offers to buy the politician out but no deal. Max and Noodles are told to close him down or take the casino away from him.

The next 70 pages describe how Max and Noodles achieve it.  You could almost make a whole film from this part of the book alone.

Ace High was lifted for me by Eli Wallach and seeing how Colizzi handled the casino scene.

[HG]

Leone again: At the end of the filming of Once Upon a Time in the West, I found myself in New York. I took the opportunity to call Harry Grey's agent. He said that his client did not want to see anybody in person, the agent dealt with all money matters. The author had agreed to this system. Whilst hearing this, I thought that the rights of the novel were free. But I wanted to meet the writer. I explained to the agent:

"I am an Italian director. I am passing by here. I would like to meet the person who wrote this book. I need to discuss more details with him. If I am interested in the novel, it interests me even more to talk with its author. If I buy the film rights to The Hoods, it is not to make an simple adaptation. So it is necessary that I have several discussions with the person who wrote it. And this has nothing to do with you. We will talk about money, you and I. But later! I want to meet the man who signs himself Harry Grey. My name is Sergio Leone and I am only in New York for a few days."

Forty eight hours later, I received a telephone call. And I heard a hollow voice which said: "Mister Sergio Leone, I am Harry Grey." And he told me how much he admired me. He had seen all of my films several times. He wanted to meet me, as long as it was without witnesses ... I told him that was impossible. I was too poor at English. I needed an interpreter. I suggested my brother-in-law stating that he was an Italian who was fond of American stories. With him, there would be nothing to fear. Under those conditions, Grey agreed that we meet the next day.

What did he look like?
He reminded me of Edward G. Robinson. The same style: small, stocky, bull neck, hair and very white skin as rosy as that of a baby. He spoke very little. After a long moment, he told me there was a problem: the rights of the novel had already been sold to a filmmaker named Dan Curtis. Previously, they had belonged to Joe Levine who had transferred them to Dan Curtis. I phoned Levine. I confirmed all this. I made contact with Dan Curtis. He categorically refused to sell me the rights. He claimed he wanted to direct the film. I was crestfallen. I returned to Rome. I tried to turn over the page and find a new topic. Nothing doing. All the material about the youngsters in The Hoods kept haunting me. The fascination was immense. The basis of Grey's novel inspired me tremendously.

Some time later, I discussed the problem with André Génovés. He had produced several films by Claude Chabrol and he wanted to work with me. He knew the situation. I promised to work with him if he bought the rights. And he tried. He offered two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for this book which was not worth twenty thousand ... Curtis always refused. The speculation continued for eighteen months before I rescinded on my promise. Free again, I turned to Grimaldi. I told him: "We do not have a contract. But if you obtain the rights to the book for me, we can talk." Grimaldi took a plane. On his return, he brought me the rights to The Hoods on a platter.

[Novecento]

In any event  the only chapter I've so far fully translated is the one relating to Once Upon A Time In America so the post seemed more appropriate in this section. 

Wow, you're planning on translating the whole thing!?

[cigar joe]

"In any event  the only chapter I've so far fully translated is the one relating to Once Upon A Time In America so the post seemed more appropriate in this section. "

Cool.

For shits and giggles Dan Curtis was the creator of the cult TV horror soap opera "Dark Shadows".

[HG]

...he brought me the rights to The Hoods on a platter.

How did he succeed?
He used a very simple trick. Dan Curtis produced and made small films for television. Grimaldi said, "I want to do The Hoods with Sergio Leone. Not with you. And you, you want to direct films for the cinema. So choose another topic. I will produce it if, in exchange, you give me the rights to Harry Grey's book."  And Grimaldi kept his word. He produced for Curtis Burnt Offerings, with Bette Davis. A budget of two million dollars. It was well managed. As a result of these transactions, there was indeed a very good deal.

How did you choose your writers for this movie?
I started by speaking to Kim Arcalli, an editor who also wrote scenarios for Bertolucci: The Conformist, The Last Tango in Paris, 1900 ... He also did a little directing in Tinto Brass. And I enlisted as co-writer Enrico Medioli, a screenwriter who had worked for Valerio Zurlini and above all for Luchino Visconti: The Leopard, Sandra, The Damned, Ludwig, Violence and passion ...

After three months, we had a first version. I left Arcalli to start refining this and I took Medioli to The United States to meet Harry Grey. This time, our man was much more talkative. He told us he had written his book whilst he was in Sing-Sing. He said he hated American films about gangsters. He found them artificial. In reaction against this, he wanted to show what life was really like by writing The Hoods. Again, I understood because, precisely, I thought that his novel was filled with passages copied from film noirs. The best and the worst! He had in fact plagiarized them. After the episodes of childhood, everything disappeared into cliché. Suddenly, my intuition was verified. The only authentic things in his story were the childhood episodes. So, I said to myself that from the moment that imagination takes precedence over reality, to the point that the author believes he has created something new with the most common of stereotypes that is when we are really at the heart of myth. And at that instant, I understood the need to make a film about this idea ... I had found the right direction. It should be a tribute to film noir and an homage to cinema.

- - -

I recently watched The Godfather and The Godfather Part 11 on Blu-ray.  One advantage Coppola had was working closely with Mario Puzo who seemed to know a lot about the Mafia.  Whilst Puzo's novel is fiction, some of the events and characters are composites from real life e.g. Hyman Roth is based on Meyer Lansky and Moe Greene on Bugsy Siegel.  

Leone and his writers didn't have the same level of expertise on this period of American history and whilst Harry Grey knew a lot about the internal workings of the mob, either he was not very communicative in the many meetings he had with Leone during the 1970s or Leone had in mind making a movie where the historical facts are secondary to the movie's main themes.

[Jordan Krug]

Probably.  Not sure what chapter to do next - I may start at the beginning.

I read the book a few months ago but it's only after translating a chapter that I understood what Leone was really thinking.  I think we should have a record of his words and thoughts about his life and his movies.

Yes, please keep translating, it's very much appreciated!  I'd buy this book in a second if I spoke/read any french. (I had my chance, being Canadian we're taught French all through grade school, I never paid much attention and now I'm paying for it!)

[dave jenkins]

Suddenly, my intuition was verified. The only authentic things in his story were the childhood episodes. So, I said to myself that from the moment that imagination takes precedence over reality, to the point that the author believes he has created something new with the most common of stereotypes that is when we are really at the heart of myth. And at that instant, I understood the need to make a film about this idea ... I had found the right direction. It should be a tribute to film noir and an homage to cinema.

I believe Frayling has a version of this. I still find this an amazing statement, the key to understanding the film.

[cigar joe]

I believe Frayling has a version of this. I still find this an amazing statement, the key to understanding the film.

it sure is.

[stanton]

Probably.  Not sure what chapter to do next - I may start at the beginning.

I'm at the moment very interested in Leone's statements about My Name Is Nobody.

[HG]

Did you restart writing the script?
Of course.  And I talked it over with Arcalli and Medioli.  Alas!  Arcalli was unable to finish the project.  He died of cancer.  As for Medioli, he was ideal for dramatisation and for the rapport with the genre and the rapport with the cinema.  But we needed other writers for the childhood episodes.

I thought of Leonardo Benvenuti and Piero de Bernardi.  Together, they had written for many people: Zurlini, Carmine Gallone, Lattuada, Pietro Germi, Mario Camerini, De Sica, Comencini, René Clément, Zampa, Manfredi, Dino Risi, Monicelli ... But I especially remember a film by Franco Rossi: Friends for life.  Their treatment of the theme was very good.  I thought they were likely to develop perfectly all that related to the childhood of Noodles, Max and the others.  We therefore discussed it.  I told them about my own childhood, The Trastevere, and several elements that were in my own script as a youngster?  Viale Glorioso.

Did you stay in touch with Harry Grey?
I returned to New York several times.  And we saw each other during those visits.  His real name was Goldberg.  He told me he was associated with an Italian whose first name was Frank.  I quickly realized that this must have been Frank Costello ...

We had many discussions.  He confessed that the only liberty he had taken in the book was about Max.  In fact, Max was not dead.  At seventy years of age, he survived thanks to Murder Incorporated, the anonymous criminal syndicate invented by Lepke.  The most brilliant discovery of criminal history: some-one who kills under contract.  There is no link between the killer and his victim.  It can't be prevented.  And the old Max accepted one or two contracts a year.  To ensure he had enough to eat.

But this did not suffice for him.  Max always had grand ideas.  Thus, at seventy years of age, he had suggested to Grey that they do a hold-up together.  Harry's wife was opposed to this collaboration.  She said: "If you do that, at seventy years of age, I will leave you!"  So he abandoned the idea.  He did not regret it because a few weeks later, he saw Max's arrest on TV.  Max had attempted the job on his own.  And he found himself again in prison.

- - -

Harry Grey's statement that the only liberty he took in The Hoods was the death of Max conflicts with Leone's belief that the only fully authentic chapters were those relating to Grey's childhood.  It's impossible at this stage to state with certainty what is fact and what is fiction in The Hoods.  Harry Grey's recollections and memories have certainly been distorted and supplemented by the passage of time, films he has seen and newspapers, magazines and books he has read.

In August 1930 Supreme Court Judge Joseph Force Crater disappeared in mysterious circumstances.  A reward of $5,000 was put up for anyone who had information.  Subsequently more than $100,000 was spent by the authorities in the search for him.  In 2004 Richard Tofel wrote a book Vanishing Point about the disappearance and the case had some prominence in the press in August 2005 when a note in an envelope marked “do not open until my death" was opened:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9006026/

There are ten pages towards the end of The Hoods (published in 1952) where Grey describes how Max and Noodles got rid of Crater's body.

[HG]

In contact with Harry Grey, have you met other gangsters?

I spoke with a famous gangster whose name I withhold. A man with a very lively and bubbly look, but nevertheless the look of death.  He was a small man.  He wore heel lifts.  He seemed calm and wise.  His origins were Calabraise.  All his colleagues were Italian.  One of them wanted me to do a film about one of their old friends: Lucky Luciano.  He had even bought the rights to a book and he proposed that I do it, without asking my opinion.  The other gangster did not want a movie made about Luciano.  It was too compromising for him.  Luciano and the other gangster had been associates.  Thus, for a whole meal, I felt that I was running round in circles.  So, I put my cards on the table: "I wish to make a film about the Jewish mob."

Immediately, the gangster stopped eating.  He said very slowly: "That is what you must do.  And you have my complete support."

Did you have help from the Italian Mafia?

No.  I didn't have help, but I didn't have stories... Whilst for The Godfather, Coppola and his team had some trouble ...

- - -

It's often mentioned that Leone was offered the job of directing The Godfather but turned it down.  According to Bob Evans Head of Production for Paramount, the movie was offered to many directors including Richard Brooks, Costa-Gravas, Elia Kazan and Arthur Penn. They all turned it down. It was an interesting book, a little trashy but it glamorized the Mafia.  Bad Subject.

Coppola himself didn't want to do it - Frank Sinatra type stories and a bit sleazy.  By the 1960s pioneering individuals were no longer running the studios - corporations had taken over - some predicted the death of Hollywood and cinema.  They feared that TV and other forms of entertainment would take over the marketplace.  Coppola needed money to help with other projects and after prompting by George Lucas and other colleagues, he agreed provided it wasn't just a film about organized gangsters.  He wanted to make it a family chronicle and as a metaphor for capitalism in America.

Leone's "Coppola and his team had some trouble..." is a bit of an understatement.

Bob Evans, his wife Ali MacGraw, and producer Al Ruddy all received threats of violence.  Bomb threats were made on Paramount buildings.  A genuine Mafia godfather vowed to stop the movie by any means possible.  The owners of houses to be used as locations reneged on deals owing to intimidation.  In the end the movie only got made by Al Ruddy having meetings with the mob and agreeing to alterations to the script - specifically the word Mafia had to be deleted from the script.  Some gangsters fancied being involved in the movie itself and there are some real gangsters amongst the guests in the early scenes.

A documentary on "The Godfather and the Mob" goes into more detail:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

[cigar joe]

Thanks again great stuff 

[HG]

Hopefully we'll get a page break soon!

How did you research the New York that existed at the time of the movie?
Once I was sure the project was going ahead, I met many people over a three year period.  Jews and Italians ... But I knew the Jewish mentality well.  I knew quite a few Jews in my childhood.  Some had remained friends.  And I was not in my own country.  As concerns the Italian Mafia, I never had any contact with them.  It was my films that influenced them.  And I let them believe what they wanted.  Besides prostitutes and gangsters always see film people as brothers and confessors.  They tell us everything.  The truth and the false.  They become voluble.  They exaggerate their story when visualizing it.  In a way, they act as a cinematographer in our presence.  I listen to them.  Thus I can see the Jewish ghetto.  I take all this in to the point of transforming me into a real New York Jew.  To accomplish this osmosis, I lean on a system that is dear to me.  I take with me with a friend who talks a lot.  He occupies the ground for me and I can observe quietly.  Then I forget nothing.  And I finally know what I need.  Very quickly, I realized that a Jewish gangster, even a very wicked one, becomes very religious with age.  He wraps himself in religion.  It happened to Meyer Lansky played by Lee Strasberg as Hyman Roth in The Godfather Part 2.  Al Capone and Lucky Luciano were nothing next to this man: he managed the gambling rackets in Cuba and directed the politicians of this island.  He was terribly dangerous.

Ill, at seventy years of age, he decided to leave everything to die in Israel.  To this end, he offered a hundred million dollars to the Jewish community.  He was refused.  They did not want him in Israel.  A Jew has the right to kill only during a war!... So he remained in Miami, full of anxiety, continuing to make steps to be buried in the Promised Land after his death.  This fact fascinated me because it makes credible the attitude of Max at the end of my film.  He is plagued by guilt.  He needs to be forgiven by his best friend.  This would not be possible with an Italian.  Luciano would have killed his friend.  And he would be completely screwed.  The Italian maffiosi totally mock religion.  They will use it only as a pretext.  What counts for them is family: mother and father.  Nothing to do with Jewish conscience.

At one point in the project, did you not anticipate that Gérard Depardieu would play Max?
I did at the beginning.  I wanted Max to be French.  Not just a matter of co-production.  I had the desire to evoke the French who lived in America.  After all, the French Connection is not an invention of screenwriters... But I felt that I risked compromising history by giving it this coloration.  With a French hero, the adventure would reflect a unique case.  Yet, I hesitated.  Gerard Depardieu is a great actor.  He very much wanted to play Max.  If Max was no longer French, he wanted to learn to speak English impeccably.  I was tempted.  I thought he was brilliant in 1900.  And I also knew that he had lived in the Environment... But it appeared that putting a french actor in this story would not work.  And thus I gave up, indeed to another great idea: to have different actors according to the age of the characters.  There would be children, adults and the elderly... They would resemble each other... If I had kept Depardieu to play Max as an adult, I could have Jean Gabin as the old Max.

So did you talk to Jean Gabin about it?
Yes. I think he liked me very much.  And I have always admired him.  He gave his agreement on condition that he did not have to travel by plane.  He told me: "Listen, Leone, we will go to America by boat.  Both of us.  Thus we will have time to fully discuss the role and prepare everything.  I hate flying.  The boat, I love.  I understand.  But what I prefer, it's hard to do.  The train.  It's the easiest way to travel."

With this in mind, who was to play old Noodles?
At this time in the project, Richard Dreyfuss was to be the adult Noodles.  I noticed him in Spielberg's Jaws and especially in The Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz, a film by Ted Kotcheff where he played a young Jew.  He was enthusiastic about the idea of playing Noodles but he had too many personal problems.  It was not possible to secure him.  Pity.  And I thought of Cagney for old Noodles.  James Cagney... He was flattered by the proposal but he showed me dry hands that trembled, so as to warn me... At this stage in the project, we wanted more past stars like George Raft... I also approached Paul Newman.  But he replied that he no longer wished to appear in films which had violence in them.

- - -

According to Once Upon A Time In America by Adrian Martin, pre-production casting was extensive - 3000 actors were interviewed for 110 speaking roles and 500 auditions were videotaped.  Actors considered for the role of Max included Jon Voight, William Hurt, Joe Pesci, Harvey Keitel and John Malkovich.  Liza Minelli and Geena Davis auditioned for the part of Deborah.  Clint Eastwood turned down the part of an Irish gangster which Martin presumes may have been the character of Jimmy O'Donnell which went to Treat Williams.

Leone was interested in using locations around Montreal in Canada where there were more buildings and details of the 1930s than in New York.  Besides which Montreal was thought to be the capital of of Prohibition - most of the bootleg alcohol had passed through that city.  During a visit to Canada in 1975 he is reported as saying that shooting would start the following May.  And there could be guest appearances by stars of the golden age such as George Raft, James Stewart, Henry Fonda and Glenn Ford.  Dean Travoularis, Coppola's art director on Godfather and Godfather Part 11 would be on hand as consultant to ensure that the film looked authentic.  There would be an important part for French-Canadian singer-actor Robert Charlesbois.  And part of the story would be set in Canada.

Danny Aiello who appeared briefly in The Godfather Part 11 (attempted murder of Frank "Frankie Five Angels" Pentangeli) met Leone and read for him.  Leone said to Aiello "You got a bella face, a bella face.  I seen your bella face somewhere."  Leone couldn't remember where and Aiello thought he had lost out and was going to the door when Leone said "You are, of course, going to be in my picture."  Aiello went around various hangouts in New York, where actors go, and bumped into, he swears, a hundred actors who thought they had been given parts in the movie.  After another meeting and further readings, Aiello was offered one of the three available parts and chose Police Chief Vincent Aiello, who has extra scenes in the 1981 shooting script.