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Author Topic: Cinema Retro Movie Classics Dollars Trilogy Special Edition  (Read 38835 times)
drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2011, 05:33:04 PM »

but there were always lots of westerns which didn't cared for this convention.
You find that maybe in a Roy Rogers western, but there are enough old westerns in which the hero isn't always fair. And this includes sometimes shooting in the back.

But generally there was a rigid censorship up to the mid 60s which didn't allowed a lot of things which in the newly won freedom of the 70s became the rule of the day. And you find a similar censorship in all European countries without having the Hays code. And this includes at first extreme violence, nudity and rude language.

eg. remember the end of The Far Country, where the baddies hear Jimmy Stewart's horse and go follow it; meanwhile he's hiding somewhere and can just blast them to kingdom come, but first he yells, "Men!" -- one example of what you seen in a thousand other Westerns

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« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2011, 09:59:01 AM »

Remember, even in bombed out town (Ft. Grant?) Tuco whistles to get the attention of one of Angle Eyes' thugs instead of just shooting him in the back.  Maybe Blondie's influence?Huh

Or maybe the "culture" of giving some warning to make it a more-fair challenge is silimar to what some morocyclists, skiiers, etc. do: ride outside the edge of safety just for the thrill....

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« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2011, 02:00:11 PM »

Or Leone is sending up the convention.

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« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2011, 02:42:48 PM »

or in the case of Leone's films, maybe it's just for style, ie. it's cooler to call out to someone and whistle to him and then kill him, rather than just shooting him without him seeing you.

also, in DYS when they are "robbing" the Mesa Verde bank, Juan sees a guard who doesn't see him; he whistles to him so the guard looks over at him, then he shoots the guard. Juan certainly wasn't concerned about "fair fights."

« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 08:43:19 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2011, 08:45:01 PM »

also, in the beginning of the duel in High Noon , at 0:24 of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZil728hUy0&feature=related Gary Cooper is behind the men, but first calls out "Miller!"

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« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2011, 02:10:48 AM »

Will Kane is just a relatively normal guy, so we can't expect from him sadistic killings like from Tuco. At least he comes from behind.

Here is the opening from The Last Wagon which shows that cold blooded murder was possible even in the 50s and despite a still massive censorship:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37it5d25tAA

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« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2011, 06:38:36 AM »

Will Kane is just a relatively normal guy, so we can't expect from him sadistic killings like from Tuco. At least he comes from behind.

Here is the opening from The Last Wagon which shows that cold blooded murder was possible even in the 50s and despite a still massive censorship:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37it5d25tAA

a) the 4 guys were gunning for him, so it's not like Kane would be "sadistic" for shooting them in the back -- were it not for the Hollywood convention

b) I never said cold blooded murder wasn't possible. What I said was that shooting someone in the back automatically made you the bad guy, and was the worst thing you could do. Any "good guy" could not shoot someone in the back, and you had to either face them or call out to them before you fired at them -- no matter how outnumbered you are, no matter that they have initiated this, and no matter that they'd shoot you in the back if they got the chance. Any "good guy" never shoots anyone in the back, and anyone who shoots someone in the back is automatically a "bad guy." This is all according to my recollections, prior to the revisionist period, whenever that is. I am certainly not saying this as fact; it's just as best as I can remember. I don't think a "good guy" ever shot anyone in the back before a certain time period (let's say mid-60's or so?)

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« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2011, 08:10:05 AM »

John Wayne basically shoots Liberty Valance (Lee Marvin) in the back or in the side from an alley if I recall correctly.

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« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2011, 09:21:38 AM »

John Wayne basically shoots Liberty Valance (Lee Marvin) in the back or in the side from an alley if I recall correctly.

One of the absolute best American-made westerns.  Lee van Cleef in it, too. 

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« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2011, 09:35:35 AM »

John Wayne basically shoots Liberty Valance (Lee Marvin) in the back or in the side from an alley if I recall correctly.

And Wayne shoots in Rio Bravo an escaping member of the ranch he is in trouble with in the back. This guy belonged to the baddies, but wasn't actually part of the shoot-out which just happened shortly before.
It wasn't necessary to shoot him.

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« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2011, 09:40:57 AM »

a) the 4 guys were gunning for him, so it's not like Kane would be "sadistic" for shooting them in the back -- were it not for the Hollywood convention

b) I never said cold blooded murder wasn't possible. What I said was that shooting someone in the back automatically made you the bad guy, and was the worst thing you could do. Any "good guy" could not shoot someone in the back, and you had to either face them or call out to them before you fired at them -- no matter how outnumbered you are, no matter that they have initiated this, and no matter that they'd shoot you in the back if they got the chance. Any "good guy" never shoots anyone in the back, and anyone who shoots someone in the back is automatically a "bad guy." This is all according to my recollections, prior to the revisionist period, whenever that is. I am certainly not saying this as fact; it's just as best as I can remember. I don't think a "good guy" ever shot anyone in the back before a certain time period (let's say mid-60's or so?)

And what about this scene from The Last Wagon? It is not exactly in the back, but he doesn't give him the slightest chance, and he shoots him twice. Practically it is the same as shooting in the back. And I don't know why showing cold blooded murder by the hero should be possible, but not shooting in the back. What is big difference between cold blooded murder from the front or from behind?

But you are generally right. Shooting in the back was problematic for the hero up to the mid-60s. But there were films were it happened. Another problematic thing was showing blood. But there are a few films in the 50s which already used squibs. And in The Left Handed Gun is one slo mo shot of a man hit by a bullet.

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« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2011, 06:59:27 PM »

Remember River of No Return ?  Mitchum had been released from prison, presumably from shooting someone in the back.  At the very end his boy shoots Rory Calhoun in the back just before he kills Mitchum, says "I had to".

If you do watch this, note the too-obvious symbolism of the red shoes representing Monroe's sordid past life.

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« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2011, 05:30:56 PM »

I read some more of the Cinema Retro magazine today. Noticed many typos. Does not reflect well on the magazine. No need to list specific instances of typos.... But I will post some further mistakes (or at least discrepancies with Frayling) soon...

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« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2011, 09:33:31 PM »

p. 25, left column, first full paragraph says that, In FOD, the Stranger ... "emerges from a cloud of smoke caused by an explosion he's created to mask his arrival."

IMO the explosion was more for style than to mask his arrival. He still needed to get out of rifle range and into pistol range, and therefore made the bulletproof-plate. (In GBU, he and Tuco indeed used a cloud of smoke caused by cannon fire to hide and kill men who didn't see them). But here in FOD, when the smoke clears, Joe is standing there calmly, awaiting the shootout. So IMO the dynamite blast was made entirely for style, and not to "mask his arrival."

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« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2011, 02:10:31 AM »

But that only an opinion not a mistake. And I assume most people will follow here the Cinema Retro opinion. I do.

For Leone it was a style question, not for Joe. Joe is a pragmatic who doesn't care for style.

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