Sergio Leone Web Board
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 15, 2017, 10:32:25 PM
Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
News:


+  Sergio Leone Web Board
|-+  Films of Sergio Leone
| |-+  Once Upon A Time In America (Moderators: cigar joe, moviesceleton, Dust Devil)
| | |-+  Dream Theory IMDB
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Dream Theory IMDB  (Read 36021 times)
dave jenkins
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13707

"One banana, two banana, three banana, four...."


View Profile
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2014, 01:27:57 PM »

Re-watched the last scenes yesterday to make sure that it is what it always was.
A meta-cinematic comment on the nature of cinema itself? Yeah, that's the way I see it too.
 

Logged


That's what you get, Drink, for being such an annoying Melville fanboy.
stanton
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2988



View Profile
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2014, 01:30:30 PM »

Actually meta-meta

Logged

dave jenkins
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13707

"One banana, two banana, three banana, four...."


View Profile
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2014, 01:31:45 PM »

meta-meta-cinematic? OK. Afro

Logged


That's what you get, Drink, for being such an annoying Melville fanboy.
noodles_leone
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5114


Lonesome Billy


View Profile WWW
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2014, 04:33:37 PM »

6/10 would be a crazily inappropriate rating for OUATIA even if they had ended the movie with the final speech from Gladiator.

Logged


New music video: ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE https://youtu.be/p968oyMo5B0
www.ThibautOskian.com
drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8447

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2014, 04:57:05 PM »

@ chris:

I've said many times that I agree with the double meaning. And I believe that's what Leone intended. Not necessarily that. "it's a dream, period," but that it can be viewed at many levels, one of them being a dream. That's been my argument - that the people who say it has NOTHING to do with a dream are wrong. 
If you say it has a double meaning or can be interpreted on different levels, that's what I have believed all along Smiley

Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
Novecento
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1550



View Profile
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2014, 05:47:25 PM »

... and the fact that pages 318 and 319 in the shooting script relating to the garbage truck scene were removed.

Hey Chris - what's the source for this?

Logged
chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #96 on: April 26, 2014, 04:11:38 AM »

Hey Chris - what's the source for this?

yeah, chris, I'd love to know where you got those two missing pages.

Apologies for the delay - I'm still recovering from a party I went to recently.

The party was held at a very large house in secluded grounds nearby.  Some of the guests were drinking alcohol, some were using drugs and some were smoking illegal substances.  I noticed a guy there who looked sort of familiar.  Quite big, overweight with unusual glasses and a thick grey beard.  He had with him several hundred typed pages and when he went to the bathroom, I had a quick look at the pages.

I was surprised to find that they were a shooting script for Once Upon A Time In America and they were different to any of the scripts I had seen before.  In the scene at the beach behind the fancy restaurant, Noodles tells Deborah how he used to jack off to her in prison and the pages relating to the garbage truck scene were still intact.  The guy then returned from the bathroom and I only managed to read the last couple of paragraphs from those pages.

The following day I woke up with an enormous headache, thought about the script and wrote down anything I could remember.

Now, several days later, I wonder did I dream the whole thing or did it really happen?  I can't say with any certainty but I did notice some images on my mobile phone.  How they got there I don't know.










  

« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 04:28:40 AM by chris » Logged
Novecento
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1550



View Profile
« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2014, 05:11:29 AM »

Chris - my question was about the source of your earlier two statements below. Do you have one or is it just conjecture that the shooting script was ever longer than the original 317 pages:

The shooting script contains additional items apart from scene setting, action and dialogue and it may or may not be significant that pages 318 and 319 which relate to the garbage truck scene are missing.  It's possible that these pages were deliberately removed prior to public release to preserve this ambiguity.

This is supported by Leone's statements and the fact that pages 318 and 319 in the shooting script relating to the garbage truck scene were removed.  I think it highly likely that these contained things which were not compatible with the preferred ambiguity option.

Logged
chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2014, 09:10:36 AM »

Chris - my question was about the source of your earlier two statements below. Do you have one or is it just conjecture that the shooting script was ever longer than the original 317 pages

Hi Novecento.

Yes I didn't understand your original question and possibly I still don't.

As far as I am aware there has only been one widely available shooting script/screenplay.  A .pdf version could be downloaded from dailyscript.com free of charge but the quality of this was poor.

http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/Once_Upon_A_Time_In_America.pdf

I tried to OCR this but owing to the quality of the .pdf, there were a lot of errors.   I discovered that there was a higher quality version available for a reasonable price and I purchased a copy.  Apart from the quality this is the same version as the one at dailyscript.  The quality of the paid for version was good enough for OCR and copies can be downloaded free of charge from:

http://msb247.awardspace.com/docs/once.pdf

The first page is a cover sheet and the remaining pages are numbered from 1 to 322.  The script should contain 323 pages but there are only 321 pages.

Page numbered 317 covers the end of the meeting between Noodles and Bailey when Noodles leaves Bailey's study by a back door.

Page numbered 320 covers Noodles ambling through Chinatown in 1933, which we think was never filmed because Leone wanted an expensive shooting location in China.

I think it's fairly safe to say that the missing pages, numbered 318 and 319, cover the garbage truck scene. Hope this answers the question.

The version I have is dated Jan 24 1982.  Some say that the original shooting-script was completed in October 1981 and was 317 pages in length and I am aware that there is a version dated later than Jan 1982 - see images above - with slightly different page numbers but I don't have a full copy of it.

  

« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 10:11:55 AM by chris » Logged
Novecento
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1550



View Profile
« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2014, 11:18:51 AM »

Thanks - that answers it. I was just wondering on what you were basing your suggestion that pages might have been "removed". However, I'm still not sure I buy your argument that this was intentional...

Logged
drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8447

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2014, 07:13:48 PM »

Chris, is your full name Christian or Christopher? Or perhaps Sir Christopher? Wink

Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
chris
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


View Profile
« Reply #101 on: April 30, 2014, 05:20:44 AM »

Chris, is your full name Christian or Christopher? Or perhaps Sir Christopher? Wink

Flattering but you're way off.  Chris Bailey would be much nearer.



In Stuart Kaminsky's book American Film Genres, he discusses the scenes in the shooting script in detail.  Regarding the garbage truck scene:

"He leaves Max and goes into the street, where he appears to see Max being killed in the shadows behind a garbage truck.  The reflectors of the truck glow "like two fiery eyes" and change into the lights of an old Ford.  The people in the car are dressed in 1930s costume. Noodles of 1968 realizes he is not back in time but firmly in 1968 where some rich people are going to a costume party."


One thing which has always seemed slightly odd to me is the story of the changed dialogue in the beach scene behind the fancy restaurant.


According to Frayling (p.435) Kaminsky was a strict Jew and didn't like it when De Niro said to McGovern that in prison he used to masturbate while reading The Song of Songs! "No! Never!" yelled Kaminsky and it was changed.


In FilmFour's 1999 documentary Once Upon A Time Sergio Leone, Kaminsky says "They sent me Sergio's outline for the film.  The outline is 200+ pages.  The outline for a film. It's twice as long as most films.  Sent it to me and I said fine, I like it and he proceeded to give me a script and talk to me.  It was an Italian script meaning the description is on the left and the dialogue's on the right.  The script that he gave me had the description on the left and nothing on the right throughout this entire script and he said [Kaminsky laughing] fill it in. Develop the characters and fill it in. So I proceeded to do so and I wrote a draft.  This was a script over 400 pages long.  I wrote this draft, I brought it to Sergio in New York at that time and he sat down with it and he began to read the script and he read it and he started to chuckle and he started to laugh and he was rocking and reading it and laughing and he called one of his assistants over and then he read it to him translated into Italian what I had written.  Read the entire script whilst I was sitting there 400 pages laughing and he looked at it and he said, put it down on the side and he said - This is very funny [Kaminsky wiping imaginary tears of laughter from eyes], I don't want funny.  And I proceeded at that point to go on writing."



If Kaminsky was as involved in the dialogue as he says, it seems odd that this script which is so explicit was completed and printed.





I think that between October 1981 and May 1982 five shooting scripts were produced and Kaminsky may not have objected to this from the earlier January 1982 version:





Kaminsky gives more precise details of his involvement in his book:

"When I came to the project in 1981 and subsequently worked on the script for more than six months, the principal screenwriters were Enrico Medioli, Leo Benvenuti, and Piero DeBernardi.  Medioli, whose best-known credits are for scripts for Luchino Visconti (The Damned; Death in Venice; Rocco and His Brothers), was the only Italian writer who spoke English.  Leone, at the time, spoke little English.  The working procedure for Once upon a Time in America was for the Italian script to be translated into English and given to me.  I would rewrite dialogue and make other suggestions for cutting, change, and defining character; and the script would be retranslated into Italian.  This process was followed through five versions with supervision by Leone and input by the film's star, Robert DeNiro.  Writing took place in Los Angeles, Rome, and New York.  A final four-week session before shooting began was a line-by-line discussion of the English dialogue.  Leone supervised this session.  Various changes in the script were made during shooting."


This ties in better with Leone's interview with Positif magazine in June 1984:

"His intervention was limited; of a technical nature.  He added nothing; he simply adapted faithfully and freely certain things which seemed too translated."


According to Frayling's interview with Luca Morsella, Morsella reckoned that Kaminsky could perhaps have offered more beyond retranslation and helping to shape the long script and Kaminsky tried but didn't manage it maybe because  there was a lot of jealousy among the Italian writers.  Leo Benvenuti added that they had a close working relationship with Kaminsky.  They started on page one, the interpreter did a literal translation, then Kaminsky did his version.

  

« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 05:23:07 AM by chris » Logged
dave jenkins
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13707

"One banana, two banana, three banana, four...."


View Profile
« Reply #102 on: April 30, 2014, 06:33:21 AM »

Flattering but you're way off.  Chris Bailey would be much nearer.
You mean . . . you're Secretary Bailey's son???

Logged


That's what you get, Drink, for being such an annoying Melville fanboy.
drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8447

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #103 on: April 30, 2014, 11:28:48 AM »

According to what Kaminsky said in that piece in Once Upon a Time Sergio Leone, it seems he just received the story or scenario, and he wrote the English dialogue for it. In that case, he really should have been one of the credited screenwriters, as opposed to merely receiving a credit for "Additional Dialogue."

Did Kaminsky ever say anything about resenting the way he was credited? From what I have seen, Kaminsky had only positive things to say about his experience with Leone (which would make him an exception among Leone's collaborators; Sergio Donati terribly resented the way Leone treated him, including his not receiving any credit for his work on GBU. I think almost all of Leone's writers and some other collaborators ended up having a falling out with him over one thing or another, except the OUATIA collaborators; I never read a bad word from any of them about him.)

Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
stanton
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2988



View Profile
« Reply #104 on: April 30, 2014, 01:17:09 PM »

But the idea is still that not only the ending is a dream, but the whole 1968 time level?

Logged

Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Visit FISTFUL-OF-LEONE.COM

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.04 seconds with 19 queries.