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Author Topic: Ulzana's Raid (1972)  (Read 7174 times)
stanton
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« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2017, 10:44:34 AM »

Sadly this film has been a victim of much interference over the years, (studio and Lancaster himself to blame), so much so there is thought to be about 6 cuts of the film out there in the home entertainment world. Thankfully we are now able to get a cut of the film that is almost complete, but still there remains to this day no definitive full cut of the film. German (the version I own) and Australian releases proclaim to have it uncut, but that's not accurate because there is still some three minutes missing from the very first cut of it: including a quite crucial sequence involving Sergeant and Trooper Miller. Still, it has to be said that even with 3 minutes chopped out of it, Ulzana's Raid is still a grim and brilliant piece of work. Showing the savagery from both sides of the fence, Aldrich and his team refuse to cop out and pander to formula.

Explain this with the 6 cuts more precise. And these 3 min missing. Missing from what cut?

I know about 3 cuts:

1. The Aldrich cut, released in the USA, which must be called the DC, according to Aldrich.

2. The Lancaster cut, as released theatrically in Europe.

3. An unofficial blend of both versions which runs about 111 min. Compiled by a German TV station in 1986.


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Spikeopath
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« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2017, 01:55:44 AM »

Explain this with the 6 cuts more precise. And these 3 min missing. Missing from what cut?

I know about 3 cuts:

1. The Aldrich cut, released in the USA, which must be called the DC, according to Aldrich.

2. The Lancaster cut, as released theatrically in Europe.

3. An unofficial blend of both versions which runs about 111 min. Compiled by a German TV station in 1986.

I said Home Entertainment mate. Since I wrote that (2008) there could well be more versions available. Some have various violence and animal sequences excised, others have them spliced or edited down. At the time of writing the review there was no definitive uncut version, and to my knowledge there isn't one now. The three minutes are made up of the various cuts made from different releases, there is no version without any cuts or thinned down scenes. I did extensive research back in 08 to find the best available home format release for my own collection, I plumped for the German DVD. A fully restored original cut of the film with everything untouched would be 3 minutes  longer.

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stanton
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« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2017, 03:09:58 AM »

I said Home Entertainment mate. Since I wrote that (2008) there could well be more versions available. Some have various violence and animal sequences excised, others have them spliced or edited down. At the time of writing the review there was no definitive uncut version, and to my knowledge there isn't one now. The three minutes are made up of the various cuts made from different releases, there is no version without any cuts or thinned down scenes. I did extensive research back in 08 to find the best available home format release for my own collection, I plumped for the German DVD. A fully restored original cut of the film with everything untouched would be 3 minutes  longer.

Well, where do you have these 3 min information taken from? The difference between the long version and the German DVD is not 3 min, but about 8 min, and then logically between the long version and the Lancaster cut about 10 min.
And this 111 min version contains every known footage of Ulzana's Raid.

But I still don't know which are your sources for your claims.

The German DVD from Universal is the same version as the US DVD, which would have been the same version for the UK DVD, if this one hadn't been censored by these horsefall cuts. Well, individually censored versions are not really official versions. And any kind of home video or TV versions which were cut for individual reasons by distributors do also not really count.
This leaves us basically with the 3 different versions mentioned by me above. Well, 2 more than there should be.
 
And the Universal DVD is the uncut version of the film, as it represents the DC from Aldrich. According to Aldrich the US theatrical version represents his version, and nothing was cut from it or altered against his wishes. Only that Lancaster released another version in Europe. Which is then a second official version, but not a second DC. And therefore is the combined version also not a DC, but an unofficial long version.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 03:15:08 AM by stanton » Logged

Spikeopath
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« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2017, 07:53:32 AM »

Well, where do you have these 3 min information taken from? The difference between the long version and the German DVD is not 3 min, but about 8 min, and then logically between the long version and the Lancaster cut about 10 min.
And this 111 min version contains every known footage of Ulzana's Raid.

But I still don't know which are your sources for your claims.

The German DVD from Universal is the same version as the US DVD, which would have been the same version for the UK DVD, if this one hadn't been censored by these horsefall cuts. Well, individually censored versions are not really official versions. And any kind of home video or TV versions which were cut for individual reasons by distributors do also not really count.
This leaves us basically with the 3 different versions mentioned by me above. Well, 2 more than there should be.
 
And the Universal DVD is the uncut version of the film, as it represents the DC from Aldrich. According to Aldrich the US theatrical version represents his version, and nothing was cut from it or altered against his wishes. Only that Lancaster released another version in Europe. Which is then a second official version, but not a second DC. And therefore is the combined version also not a DC, but an unofficial long version.


I must have made it up then...

Dear me, do you think that is the case? Look, I'm not about to go trawling through archives like I did 9 years ago. I read it and used the information in my review, and the reviews stands - a review printed in a London paper that year and stands at 21/21 on IMDb and has been used on a number of sites elsewhere - not as a claim, but as stated. Believe it or not, I certainly wont be changing it or losing sleep over it.

 Roll Eyes

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« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2017, 08:22:12 AM »

Why should I think you made it up?

Still I'm interested why 3 min, and where is the source for that? 3 min from the Lancaster cut, or 3 min not to be found in both versions? Maybe you got some wrong info then.
On the Wiki site one can read for example:

"There are two cuts of the film because Burt Lancaster helped to produce the movie. One version was edited under the supervision of Aldrich, the other by Lancaster. There are many subtle differences between the two although the overall running times are similar and most of the changes involve alterations of shots or lines of dialogue within scenes."

Which is simply not true.

That the Lancaster Cut contains about 8 min not to be found in the Aldrich cut is a fact. I still have that long version on VHS. And 4 scenes can be found somewhere in the www, probably on Youtube too.
And that Aldrich said that the US version is his version, which wasn't touched by anybody, is another fact. And therefore it must be called the DC. He said that, albeit slightly indirectly, in an interview from 1976. I can give you the complete quote, if you want.

But funnily, even in that 111 min version it would have been Aldrich's shortest film since The Last Sunset (1961). And his version is considerably shorter than anything he did since then, with most of his films running over 120 min.

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« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2017, 02:19:16 AM »

Why should I think you made it up?

Still I'm interested why 3 min, and where is the source for that? 3 min from the Lancaster cut, or 3 min not to be found in both versions? Maybe you got some wrong info then.
On the Wiki site one can read for example:

"There are two cuts of the film because Burt Lancaster helped to produce the movie. One version was edited under the supervision of Aldrich, the other by Lancaster. There are many subtle differences between the two although the overall running times are similar and most of the changes involve alterations of shots or lines of dialogue within scenes."

Which is simply not true.

That the Lancaster Cut contains about 8 min not to be found in the Aldrich cut is a fact. I still have that long version on VHS. And 4 scenes can be found somewhere in the www, probably on Youtube too.
And that Aldrich said that the US version is his version, which wasn't touched by anybody, is another fact. And therefore it must be called the DC. He said that, albeit slightly indirectly, in an interview from 1976. I can give you the complete quote, if you want.

But funnily, even in that 111 min version it would have been Aldrich's shortest film since The Last Sunset (1961). And his version is considerably shorter than anything he did since then, with most of his films running over 120 min.

It felt like you were doubting my veracity, well you are!

This from the 13th Virgin Film Guide (based on the definitive industry database), an excerpt from their review >

Regrettably, this challenging film was much abused by its studio, and SEVERAL different versions were circulated, including a European cut containing alternate takes and slightly altered scene construction (most notable in the film's opening section.

This is just a review that I have to hand, like I have said, I researched the topic because if I'm reviewing a film I admire I want to get as much info in as I can. I can assure you the three minutes is out there cuz I saw it, and I had it pinned to six versions (as opposed to several!).

I'll take on board your contribution to the UR archives regardless but I'm still not changing anything. What we do agree on is it's a great fecking film!

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« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2017, 02:42:40 AM »

It felt like you were doubting my veracity, well you are!

Of course not.
When I read something new, I'm of course interested where such info comes from. Especially if it, like in this case, contradicts my knowledge. Question is then which are the sources, and are they more reliable than mine.
 
Quote
This from the 13th Virgin Film Guide (based on the definitive industry database), an excerpt from their review >

Regrettably, this challenging film was much abused by its studio, and SEVERAL different versions were circulated, including a European cut containing alternate takes and slightly altered scene construction (most notable in the film's opening section.

I think this is wrong, and the last part is obviously wrong, cause the Lancaster cut is more different. Actually I don't know if there are alternate takes, which is possible, but there are surely at least 4 new scenes.

As long as I see no reason why Aldrich in this interview should have told lies, the part about a much abused film is also totally wrong.

Quote
I can assure you the three minutes is out there cuz I saw it, and I had it pinned to six versions (as opposed to several!).


Still my questions:

What's the content of these 3 min?
Where did you see them?
Where are they from if they are not from the Lancaster cut?
Did you ever see the Lancaster cut? It must have been the version shown in the UK until the Universal DVD was distributed.

And still, versions cut by national distributors, TV stations, home video labels etc do not count as different versions. These are simply cut versions for commercial or censoring reasons. If we do count these we have for most films countless versions.
The UK DVD is therefore not a new version or another version, but simply a cut version from one of the existing versions.
I know about the mentioned 3 versions, and apart from the interview book, I have another book about Aldrich, which also doesn't mention anything about cuts made against Aldrich's wishes.

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stanton
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« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2017, 02:47:23 AM »

Here are btw again the 4 scenes not to be found on the Aldrich cut:

http://awcgfilmlog.blogspot.de/2008/05/ulzanas-raid-aldrich-1972-european-cut.html

One is blocked.


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