Scorsese on OUTIA

[stanton]

I'm not so sure about that. One of the reasons Peter Bogdanovich didn't work out as director of DYS (according to Frayling) is that Leone wanted Bogdanovich to shoot the movie Leone-style (eg. tight close-ups) but Bogdanovich wasn't interested in shooting a Leone film, he wanted to do it his own way.

So it would seem that rather than refusing to share his ideas, Leone was actually quite eager to have movies he was involved with being filmed Leone-style.

("Something to do with Death" indeed describes how Leone would often not give full credit to some of those who worked on the films,  but I do not think that he refrained from sharing his directing ideas with those who directed films he produced)

There is a Leone quote in which he says: ""I originally went into the role of producer with this principle in mind: 'A Sergio Leone film directed by someone else'."

He tried this with DYS but ended as the actual director for DYS, and fell flat on his face. The film got initially bad reviews and was less successful than the 4 predecessors.

But I think he did it with MNIN.

DYS showed how much Leone had developed his style since FoD, and it is a very good directed film, but it lacks the brilliant scenes all of the 4 films before had. He wasn't that interested in DYS, and the film lacks the naturalness of the earlier films, the effort to reproduce his style is always visible.

But MNIN contains a lot of brilliant scenes.  At least the fillet pieces like the opening scene, Fondas battle with the wild bunch, the New Orleans duel scene and the harbour scenes top everything in DYS and can easily compete with the best scenes of the first 4.

[stanton]

Yes, that is a great scene, but say, what about the scenes when Nobody's in town? Those are Barboni scenes, not Leone scenes, as much as I like both directors for what they offered. The movies he directed don't have amplitudes that are that drastic.

Barboni was a good director, but not a great one. Barboni was the director A Genius had needed to become a good and funny film.

The comedy scenes in Nobody are not the ones I care for very much, but most of them are also very well shot and staged. The style is there.

[drinkanddestroy]

Here are the gross earnings of the Dollars films in the USA, as listed on p. 287 of Frayling's "Spaghetti Westerns."

FOD -- $3.5 million
FAFDM -- $5 million
GBU -- $6 million

Wikipedia (citing Howard Hughes) says that in 1967, FOD grossed $4.5 million in the USA.

I am no expert in what these figures mean relative to other films, but my understanding, according to what I have read and heard in Frayling's works, is that each film of the Dollars trilogy was a tremendous success in the USA

[drinkanddestroy]

RE: the discussion of DYS:

IMO it is a terrific film, up there with all the other Leone films (and a friggin' incredible score by Morricone, as usual). However, while it does have some elements of a Western (eg. Mexican bandits, stagecoach holdups), I do not consider it a Western film. I think the only reason some people refer to DYS as a Western is cuz it was directed by Leone.

[stanton]

Here are the gross earnings of the Dollars films in the USA, as listed on p. 287 of Frayling's "Spaghetti Westerns."

FOD -- $3.5 million
FAFDM -- $5 million
GBU -- $6 million

Wikipedia (citing Howard Hughes) says that in 1967, FOD grossed $4.5 million in the USA.

I am no expert in what these figures mean relative to other films, but my understanding, according to what I have read and heard in Frayling's works, is that each film of the Dollars trilogy was a tremendous success in the USA

That's what I thought too. But the data of Hardy tell a different story:

FoD: 4,25 mio
FaFDM: 4,35
GBU: 6,11

Some US Westerns of these days:



Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: 45,95 (29,2 in the adjusted list)
Little Big Man: 15,0
Paint Your Wagon : 14,5 (erghh ...)
True Grit: 14,25
The Professionals: 8,8
Hang em High : 6,78
El Dorado: 6,0
The War Wagon: 5,93
Hombre: 5,6
Bandolero: 5,5
The Wild Bunch: 5,3
5 Card Stud: 4,25

[cigar joe]

If Leone could have only patented the "Italian Western" and had been able to limit the right to making them perhaps he would not have gotten to the point where he became disillusioned by the sheer amount of quick buck rip offs, knock offs, and parody's etc., etc. The 600 or so Italian/Euro Westerns that flooded the market diluted the product.

There are a lot of Spaghetti's out there that have some brilliant sequences, great scores, nice styling, interesting stories, but not, sad to say, all in one film.

Aside from Leone's Westerns I count about 15-18 as very good, but as most on the board here know my tolerance level is low and especially low for slap stick comedies.

[drinkanddestroy]

That's what I thought too. But the data of Hardy tell a different story:

FoD: 4,25 mio
FaFDM: 4,35
GBU: 6,11

Some US Westerns of these days:



Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: 45,95 (29,2 in the adjusted list)
Little Big Man: 15,0
Paint Your Wagon : 14,5 (erghh ...)
True Grit: 14,25
The Professionals: 8,8
Hang em High : 6,78
El Dorado: 6,0
The War Wagon: 5,93
Hombre: 5,6
Bandolero: 5,5
The Wild Bunch: 5,3
5 Card Stud: 4,25

hmm... perhaps Frayling was referring to how well the Dollars did relative to other Spaghettis, or relative to the movies' budgets?

[drinkanddestroy]

btw once you mention Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid, I just had to say: isn't that an overrated movie? I mean, it is good, but not nearly as good as people make it out to be.

That movie could never figure out whether it is serious or a comedy. I don't like that sort of schizophrenia. Anyone agree with me on that?

[cigar joe]

btw once you mention Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid, I just had to say: isn't that an overrated movie? I mean, it is good, but not nearly as good as people make it out to be.

That movie could never figure out whether it is serious or a comedy. I don't like that sort of schizophrenia. Anyone agree with me on that?

I agree, it only (for me anyway) has a few great sequences the rest is so-so, and I don't like the "raindrops" music video insert, nor the A cappella score.

[Groggy]

I used to think so about Butch Cassidy but a recent rewatch changed my tune.

[Groggy]

If Leone could have only patented the "Italian Western" and had been able to limit the right to making them perhaps he would not have gotten to the point where he became disillusioned by the sheer amount of quick buck rip offs, knock offs, and parody's etc., etc. The 600 or so Italian/Euro Westerns that flooded the market diluted the product.

There are a lot of Spaghetti's out there that have some brilliant sequences, great scores, nice styling, interesting stories, but not, sad to say, all in one film.

Aside from Leone's Westerns I count about 15-18 as very good, but as most on the board here know my tolerance level is low and especially low for slap stick comedies.

btw CJ there's an idiot on IMDB claiming Italians can't make Westerns. If you're in the mood for a rumble.

[cigar joe]

btw CJ there's an idiot on IMDB claiming Italians can't make Westerns. If you're in the mood for a rumble.

not drystyx ? lol.

[Groggy]

Nah, it's someone who can string a sentence together.

[drinkanddestroy]

I agree, it only (for me anyway) has a few great sequences the rest is so-so, and I don't like the "raindrops" music video insert, nor the A cappella score.

the Raindrops video is cute by itself, but it doesn't fit with the movie. As I said, this movie is schizophrenic; it seems like it can't decide if it wants to be a 1960's musical, a comedy, or a serious Western (or all 3). And in the last of the three musical montages (the one depicting the bank robberies in Bolivia), the song (if you can call it that) was really irritating.

Paul Newman is always great, and it's a good movie. But it's just ridiculous when I see it wind up on top of so many "Top Movies" and "Top Westerns" list. I think of it as a Western for non-Western fans

[Groggy]

I think Butch Cassidy is pretty straightforward in its silliness. I wouldn't say "schizophrenic" applies when there's little serious content.